SEAS Debate

[BigAl]

Doesn't change the fact that I offended people, even if it was unintentional and due to my own carelessness.

Let me make this clear: I am a huge believer in SEAS and the help it provides to those who need it most.

I get you..you may think some people abuse SEAS and make their way easier through vce. I read an article where there were some students who applied for a medical certificate for shtty reasons. This makes me sick too..it's a disrespectful behavior towards those real sick people...Providing an evidence is easy too. It just takes 5 mins of your family doctor to write a letter...and it is ultimately the assessors' job to distinguish the ones who really need help. And I think they do their best for that.

[nubs]

My 'friend' qualified for SEAS and Access Melbourne by claiming to be financially disadvantaged, even though his school fees were ~20k a year and his family owns two holiday houses overseas

That's just what is girlfriend told me, not sure if it's completely true, but he definitely got in through Access Melbourne because his ATAR was below the clearly-in

[Billion]

You don't need to be so apologetic, Stick, most of us got the gist of your opinion.
In fact, I thank you for raising a rather fine and entertaining debate among us AN users (lurkers in my case).
Very good read.

[bridger]

Interesting debate..
SEAS in my opinion is not perfect, but is definitely necessary. My sister undertook yr12 at a rural town high school and received an ENTER (or ATAR as it is now) score much lower than mine (I did year 12 in the city). However I'd say she has more academic aptitude than me, and performed better in her undergraduate studies. We've ended up studying the same graduate degree as well. Some of the stories of her yr12 were horrible! Her physics teacher did not teach them a thing and would instead spend classes talking to students about the local football games over the weekend! She self taught herself the course. Boys in particular, she said, would face social isolation if they were seen as "academic" or making an effort to study. Well anyways, I definitely think going to a disadvantaged school warrants consideration in the form of SEAS, which is what most of you have been saying. Yeah there are ways you can get through the system, but it's stories like my sisters which makes me believe the system is necessary.
It's always going to be hard to quantify "disadvantage", which of course makes the system not perfect, but there are a much larger number of kids out there who justifiably benefit from the system than those who slip through the cracks (I'm pretty sure this would be the case!). Reminds me of an article I was reading about Brazil awarding academic scholarships for kids who came from racial backgrounds who have historically suffered through disadvantage in the country (Brazilians of African and Native ancestry largely). Now both Africans and Natives in Brazil have mixed in a lot more with European Brazilians than say they have in places like the United States, making distinction of "race" a lot harder. So are large number of the population identify as "brown", essentially between "white" and "black". So yeah there was this case where two non-identical twin sisters applied for the university scholarship designed for giving Brazilians of African descent entry to the course, and one sister received the scholarship and the other didn't as this particular sister was phenotypically "browner" than the other sister (obviously one had received more "black" genes for skin colour and the other more "white" ones from mixed parents). Sorry for the tangent, but yeah in this case and the case of disadvantage it can sometimes be hard to draw a line of distinction... but you can't take it away from the kids who deserve it. You can try make it as strict as possible, but it's never going to be completely perfect.
Sorry again for the massive tangents... haha

[lala1911]

Wtf Stick is correct... What's with all the negativity?

It's bullshit how you can or SEAS with some bullshit story and then instead of having to get 99 to get into biomedicine at Melbourne, you can just pull off a 95 or 96 and get in.

Although yes, some people may be 'disadvantaged', I sometimes feel as though the 'bonus' they're given is blown out of proportion compared to their actual 'disadvantage'.

And let's say you go to a public school and you feel as though you're at a 'disadvantage' compared to say, my school or Melbourne High. That's the way it should be. With Melbourne High, you've had to put in the work to be selected into that school, and with my school, you've had to fork out the fees to go there.

But yes, I'll rephrase what Stick is saying.
SEAS is blown out of proportion.

Everything you post is so ridiculous. My vocabulary is too limited to describe. You attend a brilliant private school, so you obviously have no experience as a VCE student at a crappy public school.I believe someone who scored 96 in a public school could easily be a better student than someone who scored a 99 in a select entry or private school.

Also you don't just apply for SEAS and get accepted under the required ATAR. You need an approved application and proof.

[Eriny]

With FTB:A, it looks like only UoM allows a SEAS application on that basis alone: http://www.wss8.vtac.edu.au/who/seas/categories/category4.html
Also, just because you are eligible to apply for SEAS, doesn't mean your application will be successful. The universities involved will probably access the income data you provide and have their own requirements for what constitutes disadvantage, we don't know what those requirements are. Certainly, some people on FTB:A are nowhere near disadvantaged, plenty of people are though.

[Gloamglozer]

With FTB:A, it looks like only UoM allows a SEAS application on that basis alone: http://www.wss8.vtac.edu.au/who/seas/categories/category4.html
Also, just because you are eligible to apply for SEAS, doesn't mean your application will be successful. The universities involved will probably access the income data you provide and have their own requirements for what constitutes disadvantage, we don't know what those requirements are. Certainly, some people on FTB:A are nowhere near disadvantaged, plenty of people are though.

I would say that neither universities nor VTAC would be able to access any income data because that is very, very personal information.  I believe only Centrelink would have that information to access what sort of benefit and how much of it you should receive.  VTAC only has legal jurisdiction (if you give VTAC the permission) to access:

• Benefits you receive (FT:A or FT:B, Youth Allowance, Austudy, etc)
• Dependants (this depends on circumstances but it can range from any children you may have, spouse and even parents)
• Centrelink deductions (services such as Centrepay where you can pay your bills from your Centrelink benefits - not all organisations offer this method)
• Confirmation of your address (self-explanatory)

The way VTAC assesses SEAS application is all about evidence (quality not the quantity) and most importantly how VTAC applicants substantiate on how their hardship has impacted on their education and how it has prevented them from achieving their personal best.

Then VTAC actually has trained people and I believe, but please don't quote me, in previous years, they had psychologist and social workers assessing the SEAS applications.  Then VTAC gives a rating to each application and passes that rating over to all the institutions you have applied for.  Then the selection officers can use that rating in accordance to the selection policy of their faculty.

[Turtle]

What do people think about people a lot of people who attend Ballarat and Clarendon College, Geelong College, Geelong Grammar, ect.. getting the "living in the country" allowance? I mean B & C college is in the top 10 schools for ATARs almost every year, yet almost everyone who attends there is eligible for "country status". I don't want to offend anyone. I am just merely asking what people think.

[deleted]

[Russ]

I love how as soon Stick 'apologizes' for offending people people are so willing to forgive and straight away start saying, "No need to apologize mate, we understand! Most of us got the gist of your opinion!"

He didn't say that you should be at a disadvantage if you went to a public school, that might have something to do with it

[deleted]

[ninwa]

You still sound like a dickhead fyi

My parents worked in factories gutting fish to make a living when they first arrived. We couldn't afford a TV for the first 12 or so years of my life. It doesn't matter how many fucking sacrifices they could have made, they wouldn't have been able to afford private school for me. So fuck you if you still think I shouldn't have applied for SEAS. Nobody forced your parents to pay for private school. (For the record I did not know SEAS existed but I probably would have applied if I had.)

Your post is DRIPPING with rich spoilt brat entitlement. Have some empathy.

[deleted]

You still sound like a dickhead fyi

My parents worked in factories gutting fish to make a living when they first arrived. We couldn't afford a TV for the first 12 or so years of my life. It doesn't matter how many fucking sacrifices they could have made, they wouldn't have been able to afford private school for me. So fuck you if you still think I shouldn't have applied for SEAS. Nobody forced your parents to pay for private school. (For the record I did not know SEAS existed but I probably would have applied if I had.)

Your post is DRIPPING with rich spoilt brat entitlement. Have some empathy.

Whoa.

But thinking about it now, I do lack empathy a lot of the time so I apologize.
And lmao, trust me, I'm nothing like a spoilt brat.

[EspoirTron]

Oh shit, when you put it like that I sound like a dickhead ahaha.

I didn't exactly mean it like that.
I was mainly saying that, my parents put out good money for me to go to a private school to receive the 'upper hand' i.e. They pay $20,000 a year to ensure I'm able to receive the best education possible.
But if people are able to say that, "My parents didn't want to make sacrifices and spend a significantly larger amount of money so that I could receive a higher level of education, so therefore, I am at a 'disadvantage' and I should receive compensation?" wouldn't the decision my parents made be a lot less helpful for me?

As I said in my earlier posts my parents have worked extremely hard since coming to Australia with nothing, being at a true disadvantage, and now they're attempting to put me at an advantage which is a negated by a small amount because of SEAS.

But I know as a fact that there are people out there who truly deserve SEAS. I also said earlier that I support what SEAS is trying to do for truly disadvantaged students. It's got great intentions but it's been blown up and significantly abused.

First off I am not against you nor do I have anything personally against you - I though I would clarify that first up.
What you have to understand is some people's parents work incredibly hard, working countless amounts of hours but they still cannot afford to send their children to those schools. Like I previously said $20,000 is no child's play and the matter of the fact is that, that kind of money does not come around easily. My mother works incredibly hard to provide me with the education I receive and not only have I have I felt highly offended by your comments but I have personally felt you have indirectly undermined the credibility of parents such as my mother, who work so very hard to provide me with the education I have. What about other living costs: mortgage, electricity bills, water bills, food, clothing and hygiene expenses? Do the math on that one and add $20,000 for schooling fees on top of that, a lot of money.  You are in no way having your 'advantage' 'negated' because the truth is if you work hard, then why wouldn't you get into the course that you want? Parents make that many sacrifices and the way you're putting it, it's 'easy' to get into a private school if you have the money. Let me bring another point to your attention, the fact is waiting lists for those schools are humongous and the fact is it could take potentially years to get into a school like that. Your parents made a decision to send you to a private school which is great. However, the way you are putting it, it sounds like to me you're essentially saying 'I'm from a private school, therefore because I am at an 'advantage' I should get a university placement into any course I want, it doesn't matter about the others'. It doesn't work like that. You work hard no matter where you are from and you are rewarded with a university placement that you wanted. The ATAR and tertiary placement/education isn't about saying 'Oh hey you're from a elite school, please just pick out of the bag which course you would like to get into and no worries you have a guaranteed placement' no it's about working hard and seeing the results in the end and that's when you get offers. You're right some people truly do deserve SEAS.

[Stick]

I love how as soon Stick 'apologizes' for offending people people are so willing to forgive and straight away start saying, "No need to apologize mate, we understand! Most of us got the gist of your opinion!"

Meanwhile, people are not only disagreeing with my posts, but attacking me for stating my opinion and side of the argument.

I'm willing to bet if Stick had let me use his account to post everything I did, the number of thumbs down I received  on my posts would significantly smaller. Heck, maybe I'd have a few thumbs up!


Yeah he most likely spun up some bullshit story, got the youth benefit allowance and applied for SEAS, using the youth benefit allowance forms/applications as 'evidence'.



Anyway I'm enjoying reading these posts, keep them coming guys. :-)

The reason why people have supported me is because I sparked this all from my poor wording. I'm not agreeing nor advocating what you're saying.

You're still entitled to your opinion (as contentious as it is) but be prepared for a bit of backlash. This is a really personal matter for a lot of the members here, so you need to be respectful and tread carefully.

Anyway, this thread is likely to lead into a serious flame war. I'm not sure if I can ask this since I'm really not the OP, but I think it might be a good idea to lock this.