Religion: Positive or Negative?

[chasej]

How do you think organised religion has contributed to the world today? In a positive or negative way?

Does organised religion have a place into the future?

What would the world be like if organised religion never existed and science was accepted by everyone as truth?

Curious to know what people think as I really have no idea what my view is on the issue.

[götze]

Well im not hating but out of all the religions  why does it seem islam is the most hostile religion compared to the others ?

[Professor Polonsky]

Does organised religion have a place into the future?

Perhaps. I think that people are turning away from religion, as they don't have hard "proof" for it, and for a whole lot of societal reasons (no single dominant church, lack of pressure to be religious, et cetera). I think that we are likely to see more people turn towards more "spiritual" beliefs rather than organised religion. You can't know exactly how it will pan out, but those are the trends right now.

What would the world be like if organised religion never existed and science was accepted by everyone as truth?

Firstly, religion and science are in no way incompatible. It is entirely possible for a person to adhere to a religion, while accepting scientific knowledge. We actually had religion long before the scientific method, so a lack of organised religion wouldn't have really affected the status of science for most of history.

[Lolly]

How do you think organised religion has contributed to the world today? In a positive or negative way?

Does organised religion have a place into the future?

What would the world be like if organised religion never existed and science was accepted by everyone as truth?

Curious to know what people think as I really have no idea what my view is on the issue.

Hi there.
I have been thinking about this topic for most of my life. Particularly in the last nine months or so I've done a lot of reading into apologetics and the so called science vs religion "debate". These thoughts come from my perspective as a Christian.
 
Holistically, I would say that religion has exerted both a positive and a negative influence on society. While it’s true that there has been great destruction wrought by religion and religious institutions, the same can be said about organisations promulgating secular ideology. You only have to look at the communism and fascism of the last century as an example of the havoc brought on by secular totalitarianism. I've reached the conclusion that it is too simplistic to exclusively pin the blame on religion as the sole source of violence and discord. Human nature is the real problem here.

With that in mind, those who say that religion is the root of all evil aren’t taking the whole picture into account. I feel that in such a complex world, dogmatic statements do not suffice to explain the interplay between culture, belief and humanity. Although I have no doubt that many Christians across the ages endorsed and justified slavery, it was the Christians in 19th century England who pushed for slavery abolition. Most political historians believe that every political movement must have its own interests in mind, so they still can’t explain how England underwent “voluntary econocide” as a result of slave trade abolition. You can’t deny that the agitators who were for ending slave trade like Wilberforce had Christian principles driving their cause. By the same token though, one has to admit Christianity’s long and bloody history alongside the revolutionary change it has afforded. The real question I’m trying to raise to you is, how much can you estrange the implications of religion from other factors? How can you separate one aspect of society and say that it is categorically bad, despite being entangled in other influences such as political will, patriarchy and human selfishness?

The world is paradoxically growing both more, and less religious. In America the far right is growing as rapidly as the far left. The problem is that the dialogue is gravitating toward extremes and this is proving destructive to the integrity of discussion. This is why I don’t see the entire science vs religion debate as legitimate. The Catholic Church accepts evolution, yet it is the fringe creationist groups who get all of the press. In the meantime there are individuals ( atheist, religious, agnostic alike) in more moderate positions who have formed reasonable justifications for their beliefs but don’t get a word in on a public platform just because they are not sensationalist or controversial. I think that this is unhealthy and damaging to the intelligence and mutual respect within the public airing of this debate. This is an important discussion and we need to do it properly.  Before the Enlightenment science and religion were not even seen as separate factions; science was known as "natural philosophy". Can't you see how disciplines of thought eventually merge and that we are creating unnecessary, misinformed, artificial conflicts? You’ve got to think a little harder than just generalising worldviews as “scientific, empirical”  and "spiritual, unsubstantiated, faith based.” Science, philosophy, art and religion are simply different, equally valuable lenses through which we see the bigger world picture. Science is a way in which we come to understand the world and how it works. However, although empiricism is a great method of explaining how things are the way they are, it never gets close enough to telling us why things are. That’s why all the other modes of perception are extremely useful for the human race as we continue to try and understand ourselves. 

Whether in a formalised sense or not, everybody has a “religion”. I know that many people might find this statement contentious, but I apply it in the most encompassing sense. Everybody has a set of principles governing their lives. Even if you’re a nihilist or absurdist, you have formed some sort of world view about reality which is an abstraction from the actual world you interact with. You’ve defined (whether or not you think there is) a purpose for living: reasons, goals, motivations, hopes, and aspirations. There is meaning in your life, whether you believe that meaning is created by yourself or exists objectively and is defined by a deity.

In terms of organised religion, I think that it does indeed have a part to play in the future. We’ve been predicting the death of religion for ages (*cough*Marx*cough*Nietzsche*cough*) yet ironically, the influence of religion across the globe is growing. Likewise, in countries like America, Australia and the EU, secularism is also growing.The decades that are to follow will be very interesting, and I’m glad to be alive to witness where the human race is currently heading.


Should add my references slash what I have been reading: ( non internet resources yay)

Beyond Good and Evil, The Gay Science, Thus spoke Zarathustra  - Friedrich Nietzsche
The Communist Manifesto -  Karl Marx (durr)
The Reason for God - Timothy Keller
The New Atheists - Tina Beattie ( on how religious polarity is growing)
Mere Christianity -  C.S Lewis

[lala1911]

Well im not hating but out of all the religions  why does it seem islam is the most hostile religion compared to the others ?

The Quran is intended to preach peace and only peace. Their stance on adultery and homosexuality is ridiculous, in many middle eastern countries the sentences are death or a long time period in jail. Also, the Quran states somewhere that homosexuals should be stoned. Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Also, some are brainwashed by religion and resort to suicide bombing. I don't know where I would be able to find this, but I've read up before that some Islamic people suicide bomb in respect to their god Allah. However, the Quran clearly states that suicide is forbidden: "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful.  If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).

Apart from this, I find them to be fairly nice though. They are strongly passionate about their religion and you probably have 0% chance in converting them. I've also spoken to some and they say those who act to harm others or cause chaos for no reason may claim to be Islamic, but in their gods eyes they actually aren't.

just like to add this isn't intended to be derogatory towards anyone.

[availn]

Religion has done both good and bad. In my opinion, the best that has come out of it is its sacred music, though that's mostly now in the past. The worst would have to be its hinderance to science, though that's also mostly done. Religion is probably never going to go away, so it will always have its place in the future. As to what the world would be like if it never existed, I have no idea. Answers to this will be heavily biased, with many just saying that the world would be either heaven or hell. What does it matter? Just figure out your view of religion, and don't use hypotheticals to justify it (atheist here btw).

A few fantasy books I read towards the end of primary school helped shape my views: His Dark Materials, and The Chronicles of Narnia. Needless to say, I much preferred the former, cos Aslan was really a massive dick to the dwarves.

And lolly, I wouldn't define your reasons, goals, motivations, hopes, and aspirations as religion, but yeah, everyone has those things. I know you're using the broadest sense of the word, but what do you mean to put forward? 

[brenden]

Friendly reminder to adhere to all posting and forum rules so this thread doesn't turn into a shitstorm =]

[Professor Polonsky]

I think something that is completely missed by most people is how advanced Judaism was for its time. Plenty of the things which we perceive to be really outdated and even bizarre, was actually quite modern and liberal for its time - you could say it preceded its time by centuries or even millennia. I'm looking here strictly at Tanakh verses (Jewish Bible, OT), not at later stuff (which could be even more modern, but was also later on).

I'll give a few examples. The Bible verses might sound awful compared with today's world - but are you really expecting people from 2500 to all of a sudden conform to modern expectations?

When thou goest forth to battle against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God delivereth them into thy hands, and thou carriest them away captive, and seest among the captives a woman of goodly form, and thou hast a desire unto her, and wouldest take her to thee to wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thy house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thy house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month; and after that thou mayest go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not deal with her as a slave, because thou hast humbled her.

Everyone else: Capture a village rape all the women make them your slaves sell them or kill them etc.

Bible: If you win a battle and capture a city, then you can take one of the women to be your wife - meaning you will have to provide for her for the rest of her life. You are to let her mourn for her parents for a month beforehand. If you then are no longer interested in her, then you must set her free - you can't sell her or make her your slave. She's not your property.

If thy brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, he shall serve thee six years; and in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. And when thou lettest him go free from thee, thou shalt not let him go empty; thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy threshing-floor, and out of thy winepress; of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him. And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee; therefore I command thee this thing to-day.

Everyone else: Yeah take people for slaves for as long as you want, feel free to violently capture them too

Bible: You have to free your slaves every seventh year, and make sure that they're doing well.

And this slavery wasn't even such an awful concept, and was quite essential to the ancient economy. Basically, if someone owed you money and couldn't repay you, then they'd have to work for you for those six years. It's even a bit like a modern contract. Oh, and you can't capture your slaves.

This one is a bit different, but something which I think is very important.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats. When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Basically God saying the most important thing is to care for those weaker than you, and be compassionate and just. This is what I think the core principle of the Jewish faith is, nothing else.

[slothpomba]

How do you think organised religion has contributed to the world today? In a positive or negative way?

Does organised religion have a place into the future?

What would the world be like if organised religion never existed and science was accepted by everyone as truth?

Curious to know what people think as I really have no idea what my view is on the issue.

How do you begin to answer these questions with any kind of certainty? We only inhabit one history, the history we live in. We can't really know how things would have otherwise been.

That said...Idle speculation(i can't help myself):

(1) I don't think asking a question like that is really applicable to something like this. It seems humans just tend towards generating religions and belief structures, it seems true as long as we're basically human, there always would have been religion. It reminds me of a core concept in what i study, a drug can only mimic or block what is already naturally occuring or present in your body (in reality its more complicated by run with it). In the same way, people are violent and good without religion. It's not like its some agent that suddenly caused people to do this, its just an outlet and way of experiencing both these things.

As a whole, i'd say it's really a moot point. People would find ways to hate each other or be good to each-other with or without religion. It's just a lick of paint to the human experience.

That said, it's obviously contributed massively to our arts and culture. It's organised people as a society and to provide education, medical care and charity among other things.

(2) Don't really know how you can begin to answer a question like this either. I'm happy to see it exist into the future and i think it will still be an important force in the next 100 or so years.

(3) There doesn't need to be a split between science and religion. There's really no need for such black and white thinking. Science is accepted by pretty much everyone as the truth to one degree or another. Even the most extreme, anti-science religious people usually only disagree with science on a tiny number of issues like evolution, stem cell therapy, etc. They're perfectly fine to accept the theory of plate tectonics, the germ theory of disease, that the brain is the origin of our memory and consciousness, the moon influences tides, friction is a force, copper is a good conductor, etc. Even people like this accept 99.99% of the body of scientific work out there, whether they know it or not.

It is a basic fact about being human as i said above but if for some odd reason it just never developed, i seriously doubt the world will be all that different. You'd still have your good people and your hateful people. You'd still have people fighting what they've always fought over - land, resources and ideologies. In Greece you see the left wing anarchists and communists fighting against the fascists and vice versa. In some of the most atheistic nations on the planet, even as a matter of government policy, it's not like crime has been abolished or the nation is any less aggressive or protective of its own borders and willing to cause conflict.

[HighLatency]

I've seen people who have their world crumble around them turn to religion simply because it gives them hope. This is also what you would see in a war-torn or famine struck country because people need something that will give them hope when everything else turns to shit and so organised religion can have a role in holding communities together.
However, in the modern day, 1st world I can only see it as a hindrance in the path of improving human rights and technology (gay marriage, stem cell research, etc etc). I mean it's not like us atheists and agnostics don't know the difference between wrong and right....right? >
That's just my opinion, sorry if its not as well communicated as the lovely people above had.

[Yitzi_K]

Basically God saying the most important thing is to care for those weaker than you, and be compassionate and just. This is what I think the core principle of the Jewish faith is, nothing else.

But is that what G-d thinks? (and surely His is the opinion that matters.)

[Professor Polonsky]

Yes, as you can could infer from just about any prophet if you folks used your heads (and understood things in context) rather than analyse each and every word to no end. I think Isaiah 1 is particularly powerful - God rejects the people of Judah's offerings, as He considers them immoral for those reasons. He doesn't ask them to "be more devout" or "refuse to aid your country in any way, instead use legal loopholes and civil disobedience to avoid serving it in any capacity" or "deny women the right to be able to sit in the front of a bus, and physically threaten those who do" or "remove any images of females anywhere in public life through any means, including vandalising public signs or boycotting bus companies with ads featuring females" or "become a financial burden on the public by having 12 kids per family which we can't support at all, costing the public thousands of shekels a month through child benefits with the not-so-well-hidden intention of becoming the majority and imposing our beliefs on everyone through democratic means" or even "enforce how we perceive God's word through violence (modesty patrols) and scaring the living shit out of young girls exposing their shoulders, since we're not the majority yet."

Instead, it says "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."

Which is what you lot have completely lost track of. So don't complain when it comes back to hit you.

[spectroscopy]

1) i think without religion, alot of our societal constructs we have today might not be as strong and it is possible that we would be really barbaric without any sorts of guidelines on how to proceed

2) yeah, christianity is so deeply embedded in americas bible belt that it wont be going any time soon. same applies for islam in muslim countries



i'd just like to add that science and religion are not mutually exclusive.
i listened to a christian apologetic astrophysicist the other day, and he was talking about how back thousands of years ago, people could not have known the world started with a big bang, yet they likened our creation to it with "let there be light"

[Yitzi_K]

Tell me something Polonium, are you careful not to wear any clothing item containing a mixture of wool and linen (cf. Deut. 22:11)?

[BigAl]

I dont know where I would start..nevertheless I must admit that religion, in particular Islam, has a bad impact on me...As a result I've given up believing in any supreme deity...For me religion has been utilised politically and economically in order to gain power...History has lots of examples of it..ie Hitler, bunch of Islamic dictators etc...But that idea seems to be broken up with the latest resistance in Turkey, Egypt etc...