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April 29, 2025, 10:52:38 pm

Author Topic: General "Feminism" Debate.  (Read 10382 times)  Share 

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Notes4me123

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 01:11:57 am »
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This isnt about bio-... differences this is about allowing people freedom over their bodies and freedom from your judgement based on their sex without having to apply your set psuedo-scientific rules to every human that exists. We are not arguing about strength and what not
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:15:41 am by Notes4me123 »

chasej

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Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 01:14:40 am »
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I am saying that the feminist movement as it exists currently at universities, in this form, it is largely rejected by society. As I said, 'femimism in the modern academic sense

Categorical falsehood. Go up and read on separatist feminism and tell me that feminism does not have roots that are terribly academic.


Actually some reading I have done indicates that the reason that so little support (28%) exists for "feminism" in America is that the media has been publishing "stereotypical mass-media miseducation" which is associated with "liberal [the American definition of the word i.e. progressive/left wing] feminist views [which isn't the academic view]".

Thereby it is possible the feminism you see today perpetuated in mass-media is not the "academic" version of feminism.

Research has shown that after proper education as to the proper roots of more traditional/true feminism (using the words of the report I read on this matter), a significantly larger proportion than 28% are likely to assert themselves as feminist.

I think debates like this should have relevant studies included to assert arguments validity so here is the link: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Flsawarchives.lib.lehigh.edu%2Finclude%2Fgetdoc.php%3Fid%3D130%26article%3D14%26mode%3Dpdf&ei=1tvbUoevLMv8lAW1oYG4Cg&usg=AFQjCNEl_KE6vURSGUPWkZA3xepHe_L1Rw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.dGI

I know someone who is a Dr. in gender studies/issues, I may ask them about this matter if I remember when I see them next.

P.S. Where has anyone denied biological differences here Helluva, it seems you are the one that has introduced such an argument to discredit your interpretation of feminism. In fact posts prior to your largely recognise biologically differences between sexes and I think everyone here can agree that if it can be scientifically and categorically proven that one sex has some attribute greater or exclusive to compared to the other, than to deny that scientific fact would be pretty dumb, as the definition of  fact excludes any doubt as to validity of a given factual statement.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:24:49 am by chasej »
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brenden

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2014, 01:16:08 am »
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It's pretty bullshit that women on the professional tennis circuit get paid the same as men though. #grindsmygears
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helluva

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2014, 01:16:20 am »
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@brencookie

When I say untrue, I mean the social claims that it makes, when evaluated against society, are found to be false.

You've got your Cordelia Fine articles and then you've got your Simone de Beauvoir articles, you've got loads more as well, they are all saying that the difference in the female and male brain are due to society and not too inherent differences.

Sexual intimacy being divorced from sex that just satisfies basic bodily function is an idea that is proposed by humanist psychologists. There's a plethora of consequences of this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png

You'll just have to trust me that women need to be loved. Of course we all need to be loved, what a grey world without this. But, women in particular are partial to emotion. Why do you think Twilight sells but males don't give a shit?

This isn't a bloody philosophical inquisition into what maths is, you are entirely missing the point. Yes we won't find any study that says as you say. But, there is no prejudice against men for going into literature, but 90% of a literature class at university is female. I don't think there is such a strong social factor at the moment that means that 95% of engineering classes are male.







chasej

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 01:22:51 am »
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It's pretty bullshit that women on the professional tennis circuit get paid the same as men though. #grindsmygears

I sort of agree, best of 3 sets is way shorter, easier and less exhausting than best of 5 (coming from my experiences playing semi-competitive tennis myself)

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helluva

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 01:28:03 am »
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It's pretty bullshit that women on the professional tennis circuit get paid the same as men though. #grindsmygears

How illuminating. Men evolved to be hunters, women evolved to look after families. Don't underestimate just how much a system can change when a small difference is applied.

Tennis is an archetypal example of how we should be approaching society. Saying, 'Yes, we are different, but it does not matter to us, and we will believe in morality and equality and so we will pay them equal.' You are digging a hole if you suggest the other, that is to say, that we should not pay the two tennis equally, because it will be a very very long time before pay approaches equality in the workplace otherwise. Men are physically stronger and are naturally inclined to outperform women in maths, mostly due to women's disinterest in math. These two things alone ensure that under the current capitalist models, which will remain for a lengthy period of time I'd guess, men will be paid a great deal more. And I don't like this.

Now, this is opens itself to a lot of problems that you might not intuitively see. The first being, is that if men are earning more than women, than it is rather organic that a patriarchal society will become even more patriarchal. Money is power. Then it is not just because of social inertia that a patriarchal society exists.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:33:14 am by helluva »

chasej

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 01:31:13 am »
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This isn't a bloody philosophical inquisition into what maths is, you are entirely missing the point. Yes we won't find any study that says as you say. But, there is no prejudice against men for going into literature, but 90% of a literature class at university is female. I don't think there is such a strong social factor at the moment that means that 95% of engineering classes are male.

Prelimenary readings that I have done just now as to effects of biological differences effecting women in engineering seem to be largely discredited.

From wikipedia:
Quote
Biological explanations tend to focus on gender differences in areas such as spatial skills. Spatial sense is considered a critical component to success in engineering and other branches of science, and men are sometimes found to outscore women in tests of spatial ability. However, studies have shown that spatial skills can be quickly developed through a small amount of training.[16] If girls are brought up in an environment where they are encouraged to use and develop their spatial skills, this gender gap in spatial sense will likely narrow.

More verifiable evidence http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100915080431.htm

This only leaves social issues and/or general preferences as a factor which there is a whole list of here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_science,_technology,_engineering,_and_mathematics_(United_States)#Explanations_for_the_low_representation_of_women_in_STEM_fields


ps. this thread is turning out pretty damn interesting
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helluva

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 01:35:09 am »
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Prelimenary readings that I have done just now as to effects of biological differences effecting women in engineering seem to be largely discredited.

From wikipedia:
More verifiable evidence http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100915080431.htm

This only leaves social issues and/or general preferences as a factor which there is a whole list of here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_science,_technology,_engineering,_and_mathematics_(United_States)#Explanations_for_the_low_representation_of_women_in_STEM_fields


ps. this thread is turning out pretty damn interesting

Bollocks to that. Iceland is one of the most progressive societies in the world, where girls actually outperform boys and a young age in maths. But even there, the main reason that this does not hold is that over lengthier periods of time, it's shown that women simply aren't as interests as men in maths.

I am not delving into why something is so, I am merely distinguishing what is socially caused and what is innately different between the sexes.

It is inherent to the male form that males dominate the maths-based professions in the world as it is. It's also going to be a permanent truth that women are better on an emotional plane than men, which is why I think that there ought to be many more female doctors.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:37:56 am by helluva »

brenden

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 01:36:42 am »
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@brencookie

When I say untrue, I mean the social claims that it makes, when evaluated against society, are found to be false.

You've got your Cordelia Fine articles and then you've got your Simone de Beauvoir articles, you've got loads more as well, they are all saying that the difference in the female and male brain are due to society and not too inherent differences.

Sexual intimacy being divorced from sex that just satisfies basic bodily function is an idea that is proposed by humanist psychologists. There's a plethora of consequences of this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png

You'll just have to trust me that women need to be loved. Of course we all need to be loved, what a grey world without this. But, women in particular are partial to emotion. Why do you think Twilight sells but males don't give a shit?

This isn't a bloody philosophical inquisition into what maths is, you are entirely missing the point. Yes we won't find any study that says as you say. But, there is no prejudice against men for going into literature, but 90% of a literature class at university is female. I don't think there is such a strong social factor at the moment that means that 95% of engineering classes are male.
In this post we have: namedropping (twice, paired with etc[?]) with no actual citations, a definitive blanket statement that x when compared to y is false, when x and y are quite a bit more complicated than that, "just trust me" as reinforcement for an argument and, most offensive of all, someone suggesting that Maslow's hierarchy of needs might possibly be valuable in an argument.

Quote
This isn't a bloody philosophical inquisition into what maths is, you are entirely missing the point. Yes we won't find any study that says as you say. But, there is no prejudice against men for going into literature, but 90% of a literature class at university is female. I don't think there is such a strong social factor at the moment that means that 95% of engineering classes are male.
It's best to define what you're talking about when you start talking. I also don't know what you're saying about Lit/Engineering.  I'd also disagree with you that there's no prejudice against men for going into Lit, or in general enjoying plays, singing, dancing, or any number of more typically "feminine" things.
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achre

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 01:47:35 am »
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over lengthier periods of time, it's shown that women simply aren't as interests as men in maths.
I don't want you to feel like people are ganging up on you, because I somewhat agree with you, but if this has been "shown" (which implies there's been some form of objective demonstration or consensus that this is the case), can you cite it?

helluva

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 01:49:19 am »
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In this post we have: namedropping (twice, paired with etc[?]) with no actual citations, a definitive blanket statement that x when compared to y is false, when x and y are quite a bit more complicated than that, "just trust me" as reinforcement for an argument and, most offensive of all, someone suggesting that Maslow's hierarchy of needs might possibly be valuable in an argument.
It's best to define what you're talking about when you start talking. I also don't know what you're saying about Lit/Engineering.  I'd also disagree with you that there's no prejudice against men for going into Lit, or in general enjoying plays, singing, dancing, or any number of more typically "feminine" things.

Instead of flaunting your tact abilities to see how an argument was constructed, why don't you just constructively work so we can both find the truth? Also, get over yourself with your 'offensive' remark.

You are right in that there is some social prejudice against men who go into literature. But how did this social prejudice come about? I just think far too much is placed on 'social construct' rather than inherent differences. Of course, it is not right to prejudice against anyone and that is a Neanderthal's approach, but it exists because men have a natural disinterest in reading, writing and singing when compared with women. Now the result of this, is that even without any prejudice, strictly off the fact that there is a disinterest, that men will not be as equally represented in reading, writing and singing as women in university classes.

The same line of reasoning is used to show that women won't go into the maths professions, because they simply don't like it, yes the effect is exaggerated due to social forces, but as I've demonstrated before, they will always be under-represented.

Firstly, it is a crying shame that women who want to be engineers and men who want to be authors don't do so because of prejudice. But the second and more generalised thing we need to consider is the social implications of this. That is to say, that given the current economic climate, men are going to out earn women if we continue with traditional models of pay. Just as we see in your tennis example. As a result of this, there will be an organic patriarchal society, that is to say, a society where men hold the power.

The tennis example cited is perfect. If we have men and women, we should say, 'OK, we don't care whether you are a man, or whether you are a woman, or fairness for work or these things, what we care about is the principles of social equality, a priori' and from here, we create something that is balanced and not patriarchal.

You are working at too 'high' a level for me to have meaningful conclusions. You are saying that men and women have prejudices to go into certain fields, well, I would very much agree that this is definitely true. But I will go and ask, 'Why do these prejudices exist and how did they come to exist?' I don't think you are finding the root of the problem and in your efforts, you will simply create new problems where women are not 'equal' in society to men.

Most of the commonly cited explanations for a patriarchal society that I hear such as religious and so forth, I just find them to be quite speculative.

As I have said earlier, your tennis example was a perfect one indeed.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 02:05:36 am by helluva »

helluva

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 01:50:43 am »
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I don't want you to feel like people are ganging up on you, because I somewhat agree with you, but if this has been "shown" (which implies there's been some form of objective demonstration or consensus that this is the case), can you cite it?

Certainly:

Start here and follow it, the general theme is 'women can be as good as men at maths, they simply don't like it'.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/03/07/the-truth-about-gender-and-math/

For what it's worth, anyone who has been following what I have said, I do actually maintain from experience that females can be excellent mathematicians, no one could possibly deny this, and from my experiences in maths, I think 90% of whether you succeed in it is if you enjoy it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:54:25 am by helluva »

achre

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 01:59:22 am »
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Certainly:

Start here and follow it, the general theme is 'women can be as good as men at maths, they simply don't like it'.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/03/07/the-truth-about-gender-and-math/
So then it's got less to do with an inborn lack of interest in maths, and more to do with social environments that aren't conducive to STEM pathways.

chasej

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 02:05:13 am »
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Bollocks to that. Iceland is one of the most progressive societies in the world, where girls actually outperform boys and a young age in maths. But even there, the main reason that this does not hold is that over lengthier periods of time, it's shown that women simply aren't as interests as men in maths.

I am not delving into why something is so, I am merely distinguishing what is socially caused and what is innately different between the sexes.

It is inherent to the male form that males dominate the maths-based professions in the world as it is. It's also going to be a permanent truth that women are better on an emotional plane than men, which is why I think that there ought to be many more female doctors.

Alright so, you just admitted that in a  "progressive" society where social constructs which are being debated now are less likely to exist, women show a greater ability in maths. Again you used the word "interest", interest does not refer to natural ability but rather preferences which are formed either internally or externally. Again, you have shown no evidence that this lack of interest is biological, whereas I have shown evidence which discredits that hypothesis.

Please find evidence discrediting every, or the most common at very minimum, social and/or prefential factors in the wikipedia list I previously linked, before attempting to prove to me that the difference between men and women in math/science related professions is largely biologically related.

All you have demonstrated is your opinion instead of linking me to any studies/reports/articles which actually prove what you are saying. If you cannot find any of these there really is no point in me trying to argue my point as it is probably proven if no contrary evidence exists.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 02:08:51 am by chasej »
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chasej

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Re: Re: Social expectations surrounding relationships.
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2014, 02:06:59 am »
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Certainly:

Start here and follow it, the general theme is 'women can be as good as men at maths, they simply don't like it'.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/03/07/the-truth-about-gender-and-math/

For what it's worth, anyone who has been following what I have said, I do actually maintain from experience that females can be excellent mathematicians, no one could possibly deny this, and from my experiences in maths, I think 90% of whether you succeed in it is if you enjoy it.

Yes that's what I am trying to say. Please link these preferences in women to any sort of biological factor. Preferences are normally a choice formed through social constructs as humans are social creatures who attempt to fit in.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 02:10:23 am by chasej »
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