"On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT

[slothpomba]

On the spot penalty fares to combat fare evasion

Public transport passengers without a valid ticket may soon pay an on the spot penalty fare with legislation to enable the collection of the fare to be introduced into Parliament on 30 October 2013.

Public Transport Victoria (PTV) has begun discussions with operators to introduce the initiative in early 2014.

The introduction of on the spot penalty fare is expected to have a number of benefits for operators and public transport passengers:

    Penalty fares can be issued quickly, meaning Authorised Officers are more visible on the network, checking more tickets and penalising more fare evaders
    Passengers won’t be required to provide their name and address to the Authorised Officer if they pay on the spot
    Payment is received upfront and in-full
    The on the spot penalty fare will be $75, while the current $212 fine will remain in place for certain offences and situations.

Where passengers cannot, or choose not to pay the on the spot penalty fare, the existing infringement process and higher fine applies.

On the spot penalty fares will only be offered for certain offences and will not be offered to people under 18, who will continue to face the existing fine of $72.

[brenden]

Seems pretty fucked that rich people can pay less.

[scribble]

who even carries $75 dollars on them on a regular basis?! ==

[meganrobyn]

Seems pretty fucked that rich people can pay less.

Brenden, please meet the current global socioeconomic system. Current global socioeconomic system, please meet Brenden

Let the fight to the death begin?

[Einstein]

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that you pay $75 on the spot, or if you regect/dont have money, they will send a infringement notice in the mail for $212.

So you either have the money on you and pay upfront or let them process and letter to you etc which is $212.

[alondouek]

Law people: Would a larger fine arising from not being able to pay the $75 be legally contestable based on disequity?

Seems pretty fucked that rich people can pay less.

^ça

[Russ]

Law people: Would a larger fine arising from not being able to pay the $75 be legally contestable based on disequity?
^ça

Where's the disequity?

e, I should clarify this. There's no inherent discrimination in the changed system, so why would it be considered illegal?

[alondouek]

There's no inherent discrimination in the changed system

If by this you mean that the system itself is not designed to be discriminatory, then fine, that's probably true. Despite this, I doubt that there is equity in the ability to pay upfront fines between people of different socioeconomic status; in my mind the likelihood of a wealthier person carrying a sufficient amount of cash to pay an upfront fine is greater than the likelihood of a less wealth person doing so, and I think that's logical. I also think it's logical to consider that the individual financial impact of a fine would be greater for a person who is less wealthy, due to assumed lower average capacity to pay the cheaper upfront fine.

I see this system, while not 'rewarding' people who can pay the upfront fine, as being more punishing to those who may not be able to pay immediately, regardless of their personal situation. This doesn't sit well with me.

I've never been issued a fine by the public transport association so I don't know what the previous system was; however, if I were able to make a recommendation it would be to change the stipulation that states that "Where passengers cannot, or choose not to pay the on the spot penalty fare, the existing infringement process and higher fine applies." to be limited to those who choose not to pay, thereby allowing those who may not carry such large amounts cash either for personal or socioeconomic reasons to pay the lower fine.

I'm sure that this change in rules is supposed to act as a deterrent just as much as a punitive measure, but I don't think it's fair in its formulation.

[spectroscopy]

if you walk around with $75 you can probably afford to keep your myki topped up

[thushan]

Is it possible to pay the fine by net transfer to their bank account through a mobile bank app?

[alondouek]

Is it possible to pay the fine by net transfer to their bank account through a mobile bank app?

I'd imagine so, it is pretty much a cash transaction and there doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary in the changes listed. Can you do this under the current system?

[achre]

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that you pay $75 on the spot, or if you regect/dont have money, they will send a infringement notice in the mail for $212.

So you either have the money on you and pay upfront or let them process and letter to you etc which is $212.

I've never copped a transport fine before, so I'll ask a stupid question - what happens if you don't give them your personal details? What if you just ignore them, get off at the next stop and leg it? Do they have the legal power to pursue or detain you?

[Professor Polonsky]

I've never copped a transport fine before, so I'll ask a stupid question - what happens if you don't give them your personal details? What if you just ignore them, get off at the next stop and leg it? Do they have the legal power to pursue or detain you?

Yes, AOs do have the power to detain you. Interestingly, that power isn't much more expansive than that of any person to arrest another.

Law people: Would a larger fine arising from not being able to pay the $75 be legally contestable based on disequity?

No. The courts don't have the power in Victoria to invalidate laws simply because their application might not be equal across socioeconomic lines.

The on-the-spot fines serve a perfectly legitimate state interest. The infringement process is expensive to the State, and thus avoiding it saves money. Providing an incentive for people to pay upfront makes sense, then.

[Tasmania Jones]

If an Authorised Officer believes an offence has occurred, they can:

ask for your name and address
ask to see evidence which confirms your identity
arrest you until your name and address is verified by evidence
arrest you until the police arrive if you refuse to comply
confiscate tickets for use as evidence if necessary.

Yep, Authorised Officers have the power to detain you. There has been some high-profile incidents of ticket inspectors "arresting" people somewhat violently with what appears to be excessive force. For example http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teenage-girl-bodyslammed-at-flinders-street-station-20131209-2z02r.html

[slothpomba]

If by this you mean that the system itself is not designed to be discriminatory, then fine, that's probably true. Despite this, I doubt that there is equity in the ability to pay upfront fines between people of different socioeconomic status; in my mind the likelihood of a wealthier person carrying a sufficient amount of cash to pay an upfront fine is greater than the likelihood of a less wealth person doing so, and I think that's logical. I also think it's logical to consider that the individual financial impact of a fine would be greater for a person who is less wealthy, due to assumed lower average capacity to pay the cheaper upfront fine.

It's not just that, if you're on something like newstart or youthallowance, $75 (whilst cheaper than $2xx) is a double digit percentage of your income for that fortnight if not longer.

Is it possible to pay the fine by net transfer to their bank account through a mobile bank app?

According to the ABC, yeah - http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2013/10/30/3880019.htm

Personally i think the current $220 (or whatever) fee is simply ridiculous. It's way higher than it needs to be, some speeding tickets and other offenses are lower than this. It's a huge chunk of money. If you take the good faith view, many that fair evade do it out of necessity or just pure mistake (you might forget to touch on, forget how much is on your myki, not have change, no time to top up, etc).

I guess i'd rather take the option for some to pay $70 and others for $220 over everyone paying $220 anyway. It's not like the system is getting worse really, the fine isn't rising above what it is before, it just isn't getting better for everyone.

I personally think the time taken to process cash transactions will take not significantly less than the current way (out of the officers time). It'll probably mean less burden on the courts/government agencies chasing up money/dealing with appeals though.

Yep, Authorised Officers have the power to detain you. There has been some high-profile incidents of ticket inspectors "arresting" people somewhat violently with what appears to be excessive force. For example http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teenage-girl-bodyslammed-at-flinders-street-station-20131209-2z02r.html

Is running from them a crime though? Like an additional crime? I think its a crime to run from the police (only after they put you under arrest though? i don't know) but i'm not so sure about these guys. If thats the case everyone might as well take their shot outrunning them if they chose to do so. I ask this more out of interest though, because i'm a good citizen of course.