Discussion point: "Results threads"

[dcc]

I think we should also hide post count and respect, for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

[Hannibal]

Personally I feel inspired and motivated by all the high scores floating about the place, rather than envious. I understand how people can become intimidated by them, but if that's the case then stay away from the thread I suppose...

If you want no ego boosting and showing off, then remove all respect, post count and other statistics as well IMO. Just my thoughts

Don't kill me plz

[ninwa]

I'm not willing to change forum rules to accommodate hurt feelings unless there is unanimity on the matter or it is in relation to an objectively offensive thing. This issue does not fit either category. Sorry guys but I think this is a reasonable stance to take.

However, here's a compromise I think will suit everyone - I can create a new "member group" which hides the results discussion board, and if you don't want to see the results, just PM me and I will put you into that member group. I did something similar for VCE results last year and quite a few people took me up on the offer. I think it works quite well.

[Professor Polonsky]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I think something here is overlooked.

People can be jerks in the results thread, I agree with that. We get the humblebrag, the ego stroking, the "omg I'm gonna fail [oh oops got 90]" and so forth.

But as much as that's the case, I fail to see any appreciable harm caused to users. AN has some incredibly intelligent people. But it is not a bubble. I would give our users a bit more respect than to assume that they are unaware how uni (or VCE) marks are actually distributed. That 75 is a great score, for example. And that they shouldn't be upset because some people on the internet got 90s. Beyond conjuncture, I don't think there is any evidence that the threads have caused any harm.

I don't like some of the behaviour on those threads myself, but I don't think the mod team should step in to exclude them based on a some people's conduct, when it is not harming anyone. Ultimately, it comes back to those who engage in it who are the ones who come off as unpleasant. Not the mod team's job to regulate that.

I also don't understand the distinction made between results thread and signatures. I don't see how Specialist [50] Methods [50] English Language [50] Chemistry [50] Physics [50] Biology [50] ATAR: 99.95 is any less 'daunting' than the uni (or school) threads.

And the reason why I'm for the retention of the threads is that, as is apparent by their wide (and appropriate) usage, there's demand for them. It's a fairly laissez affaire approach, but I think it's the best one.

[ninwa]

Which does get me thinking; there are various other benefits arguable in support of a move to the profile in addition to 'just accommodating those with hurt feelings', but I don't want to be flogging a dead horse and understand the practicalities of such a move potentially as not being simple.

tone: politely inquiring because otherwise this comes off as hostile which it is not meant to be

What are these other benefits? Did I miss something?

[pi]

What are these other benefits? Did I miss something?

In the Moderator Board we discussed an "opt-in" system so those who want to post their results can do so in their own little private club. Pluses:
1) Unis won't be able to so easily stalk users and so forth (see: simpak's post), unless they opt-in too which I think would be hilarious. I'd imagine a user criticizing a lecturer (whether that be fair calls or not) wouldn't go down so well if that person needed that lecturer later on and he/she read the comments. It's happened before, I'd imagine tracking people who post about getting 90s and dean's awards and whatnot (credit to them!) isn't difficult.
2) People are curious, they click on things, word gets around. I'd imagine not everyone is as strong-willed/determined to "not click on a post about results" especially if they haven't seen one before (ie. jaffys, but also a bunch of other users and guests who join whenever).
3) It's sending a bad message. Personally, I've heard form people outside of the forum about the posting of results and it's not sending the best message with words and phrases like "douchebags", "braggarts", "fucking 4.0 GPA problems" and the like coming into conversation. This is a shame because the forum does a lot of good, but such a minority of people (ie. the circle-jerkers who deliberately post for attention and praise) can give the forum a bad name

These points aren't as strong if we adopt a "comment on profile" policy, but it is taking the issue behind the scenes, and hence does have those advantages but to a lesser degree.

[M_BONG]

I know I am sounding a bit too argumentative, I swear I am not trying to start a debate.

But shouldn't it be my responsibility what I post here? Like if I talk crap about my teacher on an online forum; it's clearly my fault; so posters here should have the onus to ensure what they're saying is appropriate. It doesn't really justify an online forum limiting internet speech because of the possibility of universities stalking and finding out what their students say. Especially when there is no justified objective (like Ninwa said) harms yet. Like person X is not directly insulting someone below them by posting their scores. Simpak (or whoever) would have gotten in as much trouble if he posted on his Facebook page on public settings and I think AN needs to be receptive of more diverse viewpoints so it doesn't lose its university audience.

Also, yeah people are really curious about results. On the internet and in real life. Posting on an online forum really doesn't differ with casual conversation IRL. I was really curious about the VCE Top Achievers List as well. VCAA publishes all the scores with my permission; I choose to post it, like these students posting on the thread. So the Herald Sun is suddenly making everyone with a SS <40 to feel like crap? Nah, I don't think those who choose to have their scores published as "circle-jerkers"; they work hard for recognition. Even then, it provides people with a motivation. Like seeing person X from my old school getting a higher score than me (even though that old school is crappier than mine atm) gives me motivation.

Sending a bad message? Yeah I think so. Doesn't justify Atarnotes limiting what I can discuss or not though.

[alondouek]

In the Moderator Board we discussed an "opt-in" system so those who want to post their results can do so in their own little private club. Pluses:
1) Unis won't be able to so easily stalk users and so forth (see: simpak's post), unless they opt-in too which I think would be hilarious. I'd imagine a user criticizing a lecturer (whether that be fair calls or not) wouldn't go down so well if that person needed that lecturer later on and he/she read the comments. It's happened before, I'd imagine tracking people who post about getting 90s and dean's awards and whatnot (credit to them!) isn't difficult.
2) People are curious, they click on things, word gets around. I'd imagine not everyone is as strong-willed/determined to "not click on a post about results" especially if they haven't seen one before (ie. jaffys, but also a bunch of other users and guests who join whenever).
3) It's sending a bad message. Personally, I've heard form people outside of the forum about the posting of results and it's not sending the best message with words and phrases like "douchebags", "braggarts", "fucking 4.0 GPA problems" and the like coming into conversation. This is a shame because the forum does a lot of good, but such a minority of people (ie. the circle-jerkers who deliberately post for attention and praise) can give the forum a bad name

These points aren't as strong if we adopt a "comment on profile" policy, but it is taking the issue behind the scenes, and hence does have those advantages but to a lesser degree.

I would argue the following:

1. The incidence and prevalence of this sort of thing is extremely, extremely low. From what I know, there is only one reported occurrence (simpak's post, as you identified). Initiating a change for this reason is not justifiable in my opinion.

2. I have - and continue to - dispute this point. Clicking or not clicking on a link on an online forum is not exactly a hard thing to do; it's not a hard decision to make. If some people can't control themselves with this, even though they feel or know that they might be somehow adversely affected by it, then that's a personal problem that they need to sort out. University results are not objectively offensive content, and therefore should not be regulated as if they were.

3. I referred to this briefly in the Moderator thread, but that's just Tall Poppy Syndrome and a rather unsavory aspect of Australian culture. Similar to point one, if people are offended, upset or annoyed by people's results then that's a completely separate issue that they may need to seek assistance for. I acknowledge that bragging, on the other hand, can easily offend but that's not something we need to address structurally by altering the state of the forum or aspects therein.

[keltingmeith]

3) It's sending a bad message. Personally, I've heard form people outside of the forum about the posting of results and it's not sending the best message with words and phrases like "douchebags", "braggarts", "fucking 4.0 GPA problems" and the like coming into conversation. This is a shame because the forum does a lot of good, but such a minority of people (ie. the circle-jerkers who deliberately post for attention and praise) can give the forum a bad name

I would argue that this kind of stuff is going to happen anyway - simply when people talk about being worried that they won't be able to get into a 95 ATAR course, so opt for a 90 ATAR course instead, this exact thing is going to happen. Besides, if it's not that, it's going to be something else - people won't something to complain about, and that's just how things work. If that minority wants to look at those who do well badly, it's just because they can't get those kinds of scores for whatever reason, and it really is just a case of jealousy. Sure, ATARnotes aims to help people like this so that they can get better scores - but if they're going to resort to name calling just because they're not currently doing that well, I have a feeling they don't feel as obligated as most other users here feel about getting better scores.

Plus, if this really is such a big issue, why not just hide those forums to guests? Then at least they have to create an account to view them, and sure that's not too hard to do, but most people won't even realise that they're there, so if they're not even going to sign up in the first place, they won't see them and hence won't get these "bad opinions" of AN.

[alondouek]

But surely if someone can show restraint by not visiting someone's profiles to see their scores, they can show that same restraint by not visiting threads that upset or offend them? I fail to see the difference between these two scenarios, and truth be told I think that they are parallel.

Any change in the system we institute is just going to throw up further issues down the track. The system we have now (dedicated board that allows permanent opting-out via membergroups, removal of the respect system in those boards) is functional and effective. Affecting site changes is not going to change the behaviour of members, it's just going to needlessly complicate a system that can be easily and effectively resolved in the way that Nina has suggested.

I do agree with EulerFan101's suggestion to make the results board invisible to guest users if possible. Plenty of features of the forums are already unavailable to guest users and there's no reason - besides technical ones of which I am unaware - that this can't be done. Further, it addresses any worries of "demotivation" of guest users.

[90ATAR]

Results threads are pretty much dick measuring contests.

[IndefatigableLover]

My thoughts have pretty much been dispersed all over the place in this thread (I don't really mind it but it can get annoying at times) and I'm kind of late to the chase but I was thinking maybe before you entered the Results Thread page that when you click on the thread of the board it first links you to another page saying "Blah" (basically you go in with caution [include a Do not remind me box]) and then to from there? That way it's clearly an opt-in kind of thing I guess...

(I dunno what I'm thinking it's just been a really late night T_T)