"State school kids do better at uni"

[brenden]

http://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155

[ninwa]

brace yourselves

another private vs. public school debate is coming

[abeybaby]

Sounds quite intuitive...

[Limista]

I really only skimmed the article, but I still think life is what you make of it. You are your own person.

Whilst the speculations in the article suggest differences in the schooling systems relating to independence or gender, I still feel that if you want something badly enough, you will get it. Conditions such as disability, lack of resources, etc. etc are barriers that can be overcome if the individual is determined enough, or has a strong support network. For example, I know quite a few people who applied for one of the SEAS categories in VCE, came out with commendable ATARs and are now excelling at Uni. A more broader example would be to do with top-class American neurosurgeon Ben Carson who was raised by an illiterate single mum in poor conditions. These are just a couple of examples where people can outshine the competition no matter how they were raised.

It then follows that a public or private school education would create a marginal difference in Uni performance. Instead, it has got to do with the traits of the person.

[Stick]

I really only skimmed the article, but I still think life is what you make of it. You are your own person.

Whilst the speculations in the article suggest differences in the schooling systems relating to independence or gender, I still feel that if you want something badly enough, you will get it. Conditions such as disability, lack of resources, etc. etc are barriers that can be overcome if the individual is determined enough, or has a strong support network. For example, I know quite a few people who applied for one of the SEAS categories in VCE, came out with commendable ATARs and are now excelling at Uni. A more broader example would be to do with top-class American neurosurgeon Ben Carson who was raised by an illiterate single mum in poor conditions. These are just a couple of examples where people can outshine the competition no matter how they were raised.

It then follows that a public or private school education would create a marginal difference in Uni performance. Instead, it has got to do with the traits of the person.

Well said. I have avoided these conversations in the past because I don't think I could possibly have expressed my opinion as coherently and succinctly as you just have.

[brenden]

I really only skimmed the article, but I still think life is what you make of it. You are your own person.

Whilst the speculations in the article suggest differences in the schooling systems relating to independence or gender, I still feel that if you want something badly enough, you will get it. Conditions such as disability, lack of resources, etc. etc are barriers that can be overcome if the individual is determined enough, or has a strong support network. For example, I know quite a few people who applied for one of the SEAS categories in VCE, came out with commendable ATARs and are now excelling at Uni. A more broader example would be to do with top-class American neurosurgeon Ben Carson who was raised by an illiterate single mum in poor conditions. These are just a couple of examples where people can outshine the competition no matter how they were raised.

It then follows that a public or private school education would create a marginal difference in Uni performance. Instead, it has got to do with the traits of the person.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/10000-children-dropping-out-of-school-20140511-zr9me.html

I'd say that "[barriers] can be overcome if the individual is determined enough" is a bit of starry-eyed idealism, but even if the claim were true, so what? Who cares? Why is it relevant?


I didn't really intend for this to turn into a private/public debate, but now that the possibility has been raised I realise I was folly lol. I just thought it was an interesting article.


Edit: and in now way is this a "haha!" at people who went to private schools, I legitimately think that the results are really interesting when you consider the different ways different people experience uni.

[Inside Out]

it probably is true... but how many state school kids end up going to uni anyway?

[Hannibal]

Coming from a private school I agree with this point especially:

Graduates of private schools make less effort at university because of perceived long-term advantages of their secondary schooling and other socio-cultural reasons

I would assume that most, if not all private schools have a few students that are slightly "snobbish in nature", and it can really impact the academic dynamic. They seem to spend the majority of their high school being in complete control, and then really struggle when thrown into the deep end of university. The argument that most private students make a conscious effort to receive good results in school because of the money being spent is false, it rarely happens unfortunately.

I do disagree with this though:

Preparation for life and learning beyond school in private schools (and single-sex schools) relative to state schools (and co-educational schools) is poor, resulting in university performance below “underlying ability”.

There is a pretty big emphasis on learning about things outside of the school gates, and in the early years of high school there is a lot of "personal education".

Not trying to start a debate, merely my experience

[mark_alec]

I'd spin the research to show that given the same student (based on their future university performance), private schools deliver a higher ATAR (expected). Nothing mentioned in the article was enlightening or insightful.

[Sense]

I think that is is the case because a lot of private school kids are carried through VCE, getting tutors, stricter parents and more kids around them that would rather study than do drugs. I don't think it has anything much to do with the quality of teaching, it's more to do with there expectations at home and how much they're being nurtured by their family. Then when they get to university, they don't have a lecturer calling their parents up every time they don't hand in work or when they fail something, so it all comes down to how motivated they are themselves. I think that the public school kids that go to university on average would be more self-driven to do well and not doing it satisfy their family, obviously resulting in better grades at uni.

This is all just my opinion, based off having gone to both public and private schools.

[Limista]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/10000-children-dropping-out-of-school-20140511-zr9me.html

Care to explain what this article has to do with what I said?

I'd say that "[barriers] can be overcome if the individual is determined enough" is a bit of starry-eyed idealism, but even if the claim were true, so what? Who cares? Why is it relevant?

How is this 'starry-eyed' in any way? Adversity is not uncommon, human misery is not uncommon. Just the other day I gave some chicken to a homeless man sitting in KFC staring longingly at my food. He looked like he was about to collapse, and had not eaten for days. Yet, he was still surviving, based on will I'd say. Overcoming adversity is only 'starry-eyed' in the face of those who are not made of thick skin.

As for 'who cares?' I don't dictate the type of people who would pay attention to this, and frankly it is not my business. So I can't tell you who would care about this, but I know I feel strongly about this issue, and thought I would share my opinion.

Why is it relevant? Well, if you are determined to succeed no matter what obstacles you may face, then how does a private or public school education matter? You will do well regardless of which institution you go to.
In this case I am assuming that students in private schools generally have easier access to resources and opportunities, and have a better learning environment than public school students.

[slothpomba]

Weight for weight, punch for punch, state school kids do better according to this research. Fine, i can accept that.

However, what people ignore is that higher ATARs are extremely disproportionately awarded to rich kids, the richest kids are by far the highest recipients of things like 90+. Sure, public school kids of the same score (or a little lower) may do better than private school kids but it ignores the fact that the number of public school kids getting ATARs like this is way lower as well.

[slothpomba]

I post this every time but let's go around the twist once more...

The ATAR and socioeconomic status: Most significantly, achievement measured through ATAR reflects social patterns of advantage. Within the Australian school system, socioeconomic status continues to be correlated with school outcomes generally, and ATAR in particular: broadly speaking, students from lower SES backgrounds are likely to achieve lower ATARS than students from higher SES backgrounds. In particular, top ATARs are disproportionately concentrated in the highest SES deciles, reflecting the educational, financial and cultural resources of professional families.



Also added some lines, look how much bigger the top two categories get:



Even measuring it from slightly below the middle (3rd and 4th look pretty much the same), we can see how big the gap is and how large the top gets:



As a result, students from lower SES backgrounds are less likely than students from higher SES backgrounds to access university at all and, to the extent that they do, are less likely to access courses and institutions with high ATAR cut offs for entry. Clearly, if students are insufficiently well prepared to succeed at the level of their university cohort, there is only a limited amount that universities can do to overcome the shortcomings in their preparation. However, student results at university indicate that aptitude and readiness for higher education may sometimes be underestimated by ATAR, particularly amongst the least socially advantaged.



Notice the way the lines go....

[excal]

p = ??

[dcc]

private school kids have to be taught how to wipe their own asses, not surprised they struggle at university