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hobbitle

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hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« on: August 07, 2014, 04:48:23 pm »
+1
Hey guys,

Look it's another one!

First question, see attached file!

My thought process:

Substrate is a tertiary alkyl halide so the carbocation will be pretty stable.
Sn2 is not possible due to steric crowding of the substrate and also bulkiness of the base/nucleophile (anyone wanna clarify which it is and why?)
Cl makes for a pretty good leaving group but it is small and hugs the electrons close, and it will struggle to 'leave' the alkyl halide on its own (unlike Br and I), so this kind of eliminates Sn1 and E1 possibilities as being the main reaction type.
So that leaves E2.
E2 will result in both products E and F.  E will be formed once the base deprotonates one of the beta-carbons, and F will be formed as a result of the deprotonation. Won't they be in equal parts?  So which would be the major product?

Cheers!!!
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nerdgasm

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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2014, 12:36:47 am »
+2
Hmm, organic chemistry is most certainly not my forte (then again, what is?), but I had a re-read of my lecture notes and hopefully can provide some explanation:

I find that often with these 'choose your reaction mechanism' type questions, in general there is no 'proof' of your answer being right, unless you actually carry out the reaction with precise control over experimental conditions, and see what you get (after all, that's how science is!).

So, what we do here is look at general principles in order to make the best educated prediction we can. All this being said, I agree with your conclusion that an E2 mechanism is most likely. You are right that Sn2 is a very unlikely reaction mechanism, due chiefly to the bulky groups on the substrate, and also due to the bulk on the potential nucleophile! Why? Because in an Sn2 reaction mechanism, the nucleophile must attack along the same 'line' as the C-(leaving group) bond, but from the other side (we call this 'backside attack'). The transition state actually has the attacked carbon with 5 things attached to it (in a trigonal bipyramidal fashion) - the nucleophile and the leaving group form the 'axial' positions while the three other original substituents (in this case, methyl groups) form the equatorial positions. Then, the leaving group leaves, and a chiral inversion occurs. In order for this to work though, the nucleophile must be able to position itself for the backside attack, and that is very difficult if the attacked carbon has lots of bulky groups attached to it, and even more difficult if the nucleophile is itself bulky! (Unless you were enquiring about whether to use the term 'base' or 'nucleophile', in which case, because you are talking about a substitution reaction, you would refer to the attacking molecule as the 'nucleophile').

You also raise a good point that the C-Cl bond is not so easy to break, which is an argument against both an Sn1 and E1 mechanism. I'd like to add an additional point here: notice that the potential nucleophile/base is quite bulky, which would tend to favour elimination over substitution. Furthermore, it is also quite a strong base (the conjugate acid would be a tertiary alcohol, which is a fairly weak acid), which also favours elimination over substitution. Therefore, I would claim that an elimination reaction is more favoured over a substitution reaction here.

Then, your point regarding the difficulty of the Cl- group spontaneously leaving can be used to predict an E2 over an E1 reaction. I would again offer the strength of the base as a supporting point to this - if we have a strong base, it really would like a proton, and why should it wait around for the Cl- group to leave, when it can abstract a proton from the neighbouring carbon? Finally, just as a quick check, is there an abstractable proton that is anti-periplanar to the leaving group? Yes there is - of the 3 hydrogens on the  neighbouring carbon, one is anti-periplanar. So therefore, an E2 mechanism is both plausible and likely!

Turning to the suggested answers, we see that option G results from a substitution reaction. So that's unlikely. I'm a bit confused by your statement, " E will be formed once the base deprotonates one of the beta-carbons". An E2 reaction is a concerted process - which means that basically everything happens in one relatively smooth motion, and you end up with your products. So to me, this means essentially that by the time the base has fully abstracted the proton, all of the other stuff has already finished too. So, we should end up with the ketone (option F), plus a tert-butyl alcohol. The tert-butyl alcohol is not option E (note that the carbon attached to the O atom would need to be a tertiary carbon, and option E has a primary carbon instead). So to me, the answer should be F.

Hopefully this helps, and hopefully I haven't stuffed this up completely!

hobbitle

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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2014, 10:08:40 am »
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D'oh, thanks nerdgasm, the issue was that I had a brain glitch and thought that option E was what would result if the base became protonated, but of course it's an entirely different molecule (it would need to be a tertiary carbon not a primary)... I have no idea how I missed that.  One of those times where you want to see something that isn't there, maybe.
Anyway yes of course E is not even a possible product for any reaction so it must be F, as a result of an E2 reaction.
Thankyou for your comprehensive answer!
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hobbitle

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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 11:38:40 am »
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Does anyone know where to get more good practise questions for Organic Chem other than the Tutorial Sheet and Appendix 1 in the tute manual thingy?
That seems like very little to try and practise doing stuff that at least I am finding really bloody difficult and confusing.
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2014, 12:07:41 pm »
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Does anyone know where to get more good practise questions for Organic Chem other than the Tutorial Sheet and Appendix 1 in the tute manual thingy?
That seems like very little to try and practise doing stuff that at least I am finding really bloody difficult and confusing.

Past papers are probably the next best source, there's about ten years worth of them on the library website (although quite a few lack answers.)

You could also try textbooks, but it's difficult to know exactly what's relevant (this was my problem when using McMurry.)
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2014, 12:28:53 pm »
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Yeah the textbooks are kind of useless. I'll try past exams, thanks. :)
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2014, 07:11:09 pm »
0
Hmm, organic chemistry is most certainly not my forte (then again, what is?), but I had a re-read of my lecture notes and hopefully can provide some explanation:

I find that often with these 'choose your reaction mechanism' type questions, in general there is no 'proof' of your answer being right, unless you actually carry out the reaction with precise control over experimental conditions, and see what you get (after all, that's how science is!).

So, what we do here is look at general principles in order to make the best educated prediction we can. All this being said, I agree with your conclusion that an E2 mechanism is most likely. You are right that Sn2 is a very unlikely reaction mechanism, due chiefly to the bulky groups on the substrate, and also due to the bulk on the potential nucleophile! Why? Because in an Sn2 reaction mechanism, the nucleophile must attack along the same 'line' as the C-(leaving group) bond, but from the other side (we call this 'backside attack'). The transition state actually has the attacked carbon with 5 things attached to it (in a trigonal bipyramidal fashion) - the nucleophile and the leaving group form the 'axial' positions while the three other original substituents (in this case, methyl groups) form the equatorial positions. Then, the leaving group leaves, and a chiral inversion occurs. In order for this to work though, the nucleophile must be able to position itself for the backside attack, and that is very difficult if the attacked carbon has lots of bulky groups attached to it, and even more difficult if the nucleophile is itself bulky! (Unless you were enquiring about whether to use the term 'base' or 'nucleophile', in which case, because you are talking about a substitution reaction, you would refer to the attacking molecule as the 'nucleophile').

You also raise a good point that the C-Cl bond is not so easy to break, which is an argument against both an Sn1 and E1 mechanism. I'd like to add an additional point here: notice that the potential nucleophile/base is quite bulky, which would tend to favour elimination over substitution. Furthermore, it is also quite a strong base (the conjugate acid would be a tertiary alcohol, which is a fairly weak acid), which also favours elimination over substitution. Therefore, I would claim that an elimination reaction is more favoured over a substitution reaction here.

Then, your point regarding the difficulty of the Cl- group spontaneously leaving can be used to predict an E2 over an E1 reaction. I would again offer the strength of the base as a supporting point to this - if we have a strong base, it really would like a proton, and why should it wait around for the Cl- group to leave, when it can abstract a proton from the neighbouring carbon? Finally, just as a quick check, is there an abstractable proton that is anti-periplanar to the leaving group? Yes there is - of the 3 hydrogens on the  neighbouring carbon, one is anti-periplanar. So therefore, an E2 mechanism is both plausible and likely!

Turning to the suggested answers, we see that option G results from a substitution reaction. So that's unlikely. I'm a bit confused by your statement, " E will be formed once the base deprotonates one of the beta-carbons". An E2 reaction is a concerted process - which means that basically everything happens in one relatively smooth motion, and you end up with your products. So to me, this means essentially that by the time the base has fully abstracted the proton, all of the other stuff has already finished too. So, we should end up with the ketone (option F), plus a tert-butyl alcohol. The tert-butyl alcohol is not option E (note that the carbon attached to the O atom would need to be a tertiary carbon, and option E has a primary carbon instead). So to me, the answer should be F.

Hopefully this helps, and hopefully I haven't stuffed this up completely!

I am two months late, but I'm going to say something here anyway
It's a tertiary carbon; you certainly can get spontaneous dissociation of the C-Cl bond. This is the archetypal molecule for SN1, E1 to occur. However, as the base is quite hindered, you're not going to get SN1. In addition, the base is fairly strong, so you're going to get competition between E2 and E1. We don't have a solvent specified, but in either case you're going to get an elimination and there's only one elimination product.

Yeah the textbooks are kind of useless. I'll try past exams, thanks. :)

Useless? I guess you need to hand-pick the relevant questions yourself.
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2014, 01:03:20 am »
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Useless? I guess you need to hand-pick the relevant questions yourself.

That's the problem though - it's hard to tell if the question's relevant, or you just don't recall that portion of the course.

To the OP - Clayden's Organic Chemistry is a fantasist book (better then McMurry imo) and might be worth a look if you're lost. Not too many questions though.
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2014, 03:15:49 am »
0
I am two months late, but I'm going to say something here anyway
It's a tertiary carbon; you certainly can get spontaneous dissociation of the C-Cl bond. This is the archetypal molecule for SN1, E1 to occur. However, as the base is quite hindered, you're not going to get SN1. In addition, the base is fairly strong, so you're going to get competition between E2 and E1. We don't have a solvent specified, but in either case you're going to get an elimination and there's only one elimination product.

No problems, thanks for your response! It's always good to be corrected and realise what kinds of misconceptions you may have in the material you learn.

I have the Clayden book, and I personally think it's pretty good - the explanations are quite decent. It tries to build things up so that the material in later chapters follows on from earlier chapters, so you may have to flip back and forth a bit to refresh your knowledge a bit. I don't recall it having many questions, but I suppose it's worth a try if you're looking for something to make understanding easier?

hobbitle

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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 11:54:19 am »
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Hey guys I have a question about organic redox chemistry.

For oxidation of primary alcohols, will all oxidising reagents take the primary alcohol all the way through to a carboxylic acid? (The reagents we have learned about are MnO4-, Cr2O7, CrO3) Will any of them 'stop' at the aldehyde?

For reduction of ketones, are both NaBH4 and LiAlH4 'strong' enough to reduce them to secondary alcohols?
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2014, 12:03:49 pm »
+1
Hey guys I have a question about organic redox chemistry.

For oxidation of primary alcohols, will all oxidising reagents take the primary alcohol all the way through to a carboxylic acid? (The reagents we have learned about are MnO4-, Cr2O7, CrO3) Will any of them 'stop' at the aldehyde?

For reduction of ketones, are both NaBH4 and LiAlH4 'strong' enough to reduce them to secondary alcohols?

There are examples of oxidation agents that 'stop' at the aldehyde, but all those oxidation agents go through to the acid. I don't think you get taught about the weaker oxidation agents in CHEM10004.

Yep, both those reducing agents can reduce a secondary alcohol.

I have the Clayden book, and I personally think it's pretty good - the explanations are quite decent. It tries to build things up so that the material in later chapters follows on from earlier chapters, so you may have to flip back and forth a bit to refresh your knowledge a bit. I don't recall it having many questions, but I suppose it's worth a try if you're looking for something to make understanding easier?

It's my favourite organic chemistry book (oh god I'm such a nerd)
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hobbitle

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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 12:07:05 pm »
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There are examples of oxidation agents that 'stop' at the aldehyde, but all those oxidation agents go through to the acid. I don't think you get taught about the weaker oxidation agents in CHEM10004.

Yep, both those reducing agents can reduce a secondary alcohol.

Thanks mate :)
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2014, 12:20:18 pm »
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Just gonna keep going haha.

Why is Br2 classed as an electrophile? I understand the theory that as Br2 approached a Nucleophile, it becomes polarised etc and so can act as an electrophile with the nucleophile.

But won't the same thing happen if it approaches an electrophile, just the other way around?
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 02:43:03 pm »
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Just gonna keep going haha.

Why is Br2 classed as an electrophile? I understand the theory that as Br2 approached a Nucleophile, it becomes polarised etc and so can act as an electrophile with the nucleophile.

But won't the same thing happen if it approaches an electrophile, just the other way around?

I think it's something on the lines of the following
Bromine is rather electronegative and as such prefers to be in a -1 oxidation state than a 0 oxidation state. You can see this from the oxidising strength of diatomic bromine. Thus, diatomic bromine is electron-poor.
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Re: hobbitle's CHEM10004 Questions Thread
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 08:32:36 pm »
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Hey guys, this refers to the attached question 10.3.

I don't understand what part b) is asking.

I know that we use Ksp = [Cu][OH]^2 and can solve for [Cu] from there, because that's what our tutor said to do, but I don't understand why. I think I don't really get the concept of a solubility product (I guess it's a measure of how soluble something is... but soluble in what? Is it always the inverse of Kc, or is that just if the ionic equation goes from ion --> solid instead of solid--> ion?)

And this is for Question 10.5:

I am getting confused with concentrations. 
So we are starting off with 0.1M of the oxidant, cool.
So when 1% of the oxidant is used, does that mean 1% of 0.1 M has been used? So the concentration is 0.099 M, when 1% has been used up? Feels like an idiotic question but I'm just confused.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 08:35:17 pm by hobbitle »
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