The debate over Islam

[ShortBlackChick]

^ Thank you!

This reminds me of this delightful debate between Andrew OKeefe and Rita Panahi.

I think OKeefe has a point when he says that we have been engaging with the wider Muslim community, we always have and we always will. I think we choose to ignore what their beliefs, what their actions, are telling us.

They tell us they dont like the Western occupations of their lands but we again and again refuse to accept that. Its easier to blame it on their shortcomings over our greed right?

We know Islamic extremism exists, but we refuse to look at why or how to stop it, because its a 'global pandemic' that helps to fuel our Islamophobia and deflect the blame.

[Navy223]

^ Thank you!

This reminds me of this delightful debate between Andrew OKeefe and Rita Panahi.

I think OKeefe has a point when he says that we have been engaging with the wider Muslim community, we always have and we always will. I think we choose to ignore what their beliefs, what their actions, are telling us.

They tell us they dont like the Western occupations of their lands but we again and again refuse to accept that. Its easier to blame it on their shortcomings over our greed right?

We know Islamic extremism exists, but we refuse to look at why or how to stop it, because its a 'global pandemic' that helps to fuel our Islamophobia and deflect the blame.

"Western occupations of their lands"?
Please elaborate.

[Professor Polonsky]

The 'Islamic extremism is a result of imperialism' argument is so tired.

[Navy223]

The 'Islamic extremism is a result of imperialism' argument is so tired.

Right on point Professor Polonsky, not only is it tired, it is a poor excuse and deflection of the real issues surrounding Islam and extremism. Surely we’re entitled to conclude that something specific to Islam seems to license violence, especially as the majority of terror attacks around the world in the past 12 months let alone, have been carried out by the hands of Islamist extremists (e.g Boko Haram, Paris massacres, IS, 2014 shooting at Parliament hill in Canada, Jewish museum of Belgium shooting and the Lindt caffe siege). surely to not acknowledge that these acts are not coincidences is to be in denial.
According to many (not all) muslims, Western countries are to blame for not being welcoming enough, for being part of the US-led alliance in the Middle East, for supporting Israel’s right to exist, for publishing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, for raising the terror alert level. i mean, if you rationalise hard enough, any act can be considered and incitement to Islamic extremists.
If we are to make a change for the betterment of our future, moderate, peaceful Muslims, the media and the general public need to unconditionally condemn and help solve instead of engaging in unhelpful games of deflection.

[ShortBlackChick]

Man Haron Monis sent letters to the family's of deceased soldiers from Afganistan, equating them as murders and calling from the removal of troops from Afghanistan. If he ever did get through to Tones on the day of the siege I'm sure he'd have lots to say about that. One of Osama Bin Laden's reasons behind attacking the US and the West was the occupation of US bases in Saudi Arabia, amongst other hatreds including US support of Isreal.

Who doesnt condemn these acts committed by Islamic extremists? This is what I'm saying, we condemn them obviously, but we choose to ignore why. Why is the imperialism argument so easy to dismiss?

And if violence is a characteristic only prevalent in Islam, go ahead and fix it. But you dont know why you're fixing it and what you're fixing. You choose to ignore the why and go for how. You think extremists wake up one day and think 'fuck yeah gonna make the world follow the Islamic caliphate' but you fail to look at the end of that sentence when they say 'because of...'

Not going to bother touching the whole Islam =violence thing. People + the media sees what they want to see. Hell, Bush invaded Iraq and Afganistan from the Internal push from Jews and his own Evangelic faith but no one cares about that right, it's just Islam that forces er1 to go batshit crazy.

EDIT: I never thought I'd see the day where I gave a shit about the Imperialism argument either, but its 2015 ffs, havent we heard enough of Muslims telling us to gtfo of their states. It's about time we leave them alone to do whatever the fuck they want. Bring back sovereignty, let them fuck up themselves. Saudi Arabia will always be money hungry enough to sell us their oil.

[M_BONG]

Right on point Professor Polonsky, not only is it tired, it is a poor excuse and deflection of the real issues surrounding Islam and extremism. Surely we’re entitled to conclude that something specific to Islam seems to license violence, especially as the majority of terror attacks around the world in the past 12 months let alone, have been carried out by the hands of Islamist extremists (e.g Boko Haram, Paris massacres, IS, 2014 shooting at Parliament hill in Canada, Jewish museum of Belgium shooting and the Lindt caffe siege). surely to not acknowledge that these acts are not coincidences is to be in denial.

Read over what you have just said. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat again, until you feel ashamed of yourself.

Did you know, by a simple google search, you can find that the Bible and the Torah, all have provisions that incite violence - it's only a big fool who takes everything literally.. It's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!1

). surely to not acknowledge that these acts are not coincidences is to be in denial.
According to many (not all) muslims, Western countries are to blame for not being welcoming enough, for being part of the US-led alliance in the Middle East, for supporting Israel’s right to exist, for publishing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, for raising the terror alert level. i mean, if you rationalise hard enough, any act can be considered and incitement to Islamic extremists.

Cutey, at no point did any of us try to justify extremism. Also, the thing about slippery slopes is that they only work if there is direct causation and effect. There is clearly one here. You can't deny something by using the blanket argument "oh, everything is a slippery slope if you make it one" just like you can't deny the assassination of some random Austrian guy instigated WWI by saying "oh if you look hard enough, anything could have caused WWI".

I won't even bother to respond to anything you say anymore - one can only tolerate as much ignorance and red herring.

[Navy223]

Read over what you have just said. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat again, until you feel ashamed of yourself.

Did you know, by a simple google search, you can find that the Bible and the Torah, all have provisions that incite violence - it's only a big fool who takes everything literally.. It's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!1
Cutey, at no point did any of us try to justify extremism. Also, the thing about slippery slopes is that they only work if there is direct causation and effect. There is clearly one here. You can't deny something by using the blanket argument "oh, everything is a slippery slope if you make it one" just like you can't deny the assassination of some random Austrian guy instigated WWI by saying "oh if you look hard enough, anything could have caused WWI".

I won't even bother to respond to anything you say anymore - one can only tolerate as much ignorance and red herring.

"i mean, if you rationalise hard enough, any act can be considered and incitement to Islamic extremists." SARCASM.

"Did you know, by a simple google search, you can find that the Bible and the Torah, all have provisions that incite violence". This may be so but where else outside of Islam are these interpretations actually taken literally! I challenge you, find me religions other than islam that stone homosexuals, jails bloggers without cause or beheads dissidents!

i don't believe what i have just read - completely nonsensical. "It's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!", do you know there are just as many Buddhists here as Muslims, yet not one Buddhist has killed here for his faith. The same goes for Jews, how many Jewish terrorist attacks have occurred here? You have just substantiated my point, when i say "surely we’re entitled to conclude that something specific to Islam seems to license violence". You do admit that it's not the individual but the religion that envokes these acts of terror? You say, and i will repeat (maybe then you'll understand the naive nature of your statement), "it's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!"
The thing is there's a problem. It's screaming and shouting. Many Muslims realize there's a problem. The Egyptian president spoke recently of "a need to effect a substantial change in Islam." And in 2004, Abdulrahman al-Rashed, the former general manager of the al-Arabiya television news channel, said: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."
 I want a straight and simple answer to this question, do you think it's a coincidence that the vast majority of terror attacks around the world in the past 12 months let alone, have been carried out by the hands of Islamist extremists (e.g Boko Haram, Paris massacres, IS, 2014 shooting at Parliament hill in Canada, Jewish museum of Belgium shooting and the Lindt caffe siege).

[ninwa]

"Did you know, by a simple google search, you can find that the Bible and the Torah, all have provisions that incite violence". This may be so but where else outside of Islam are these interpretations actually taken literally!

Mate you really need to learn to use Google, it's a fantastic resource!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

[Navy223]

Mate you really need to learn to use Google, it's a fantastic resource!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

You have not proven anything, other than the ability to type things into google. When was the last Jewish terrorist attack? or when was the last Buddhist attack? When was the last Christian attack on an abortion clinic?
It would serve you well to actually browse those links yourself.
 It would be absurd to think that there would be no terrorist attacks from other religions, but surely it is not a coincidence when the majority of terrorist attacks we hear about are coming from Islamist extremist preaching in the name of god.

[ShortBlackChick]

"i mean, if you rationalise hard enough, any act can be considered and incitement to Islamic extremists." SARCASM.

"Did you know, by a simple google search, you can find that the Bible and the Torah, all have provisions that incite violence". This may be so but where else outside of Islam are these interpretations actually taken literally! I challenge you, find me religions other than islam that stone homosexuals, jails bloggers without cause or beheads dissidents!

i don't believe what i have just read - completely nonsensical. "It's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!", do you know there are just as many Buddhists here as Muslims, yet not one Buddhist has killed here for his faith. The same goes for Jews, how many Jewish terrorist attacks have occurred here? You have just substantiated my point, when i say "surely we’re entitled to conclude that something specific to Islam seems to license violence". You do admit that it's not the individual but the religion that envokes these acts of terror? You say, and i will repeat (maybe then you'll understand the naive nature of your statement), "it's totally not the fault of some deranged extremist, but some religion that tells everyone to screw us all!!"

WTH did I just read? You really do need to educate yourself, those links Ninwa posted are a great start. I was going to mention that Buddhists in Sri Lanka created a State of Emergency when state-wide Muslims were attacked by protests led by a right-wing Buddhist extremist group. Islamophobia within Sri Lankan Buddhists is actually the norm, there's probably more intolerance there than there is here. Some would call the ongoing war in the Gaza strip as acts of terrorism by Jews, but thats totally up to your interpretation.

But no, its ok, you can continue to see what you want to see. Rationalise YOUR Islamophobia however you want.

In any case, how about you tell us what acts of terrorism IS have committed/been directly linked to, I see them there on your list of terrorists. Are you aware of the difference between an Insurgency group and a terrorist organisation?

Honestly I dont think it's Islam thats the problem, I honestly think its RELIGION as a whole that is the issue, but as most on AN know, that's an entirely a new topic ahaha

[ninwa]

You have not proven anything, other than the ability to type things into google. When was the last Jewish terrorist attack? or when was the last Buddhist attack? When was the last Christian attack on an abortion clinic?
It would serve you well to actually browse those links yourself.
 It would be absurd to think that there would be no terrorist attacks from other religions, but surely it is not a coincidence when the majority of terrorist attacks we hear about are coming from Islamist extremist preaching in the name of god.

Lol okay so you've decided to shift the goalposts from
"where else outside of Islam are these interpretations actually taken literally"
to
"where else outside of Islam are these interpretations actually taken literally recently. using my own personal definition of 'recently'".

Your objective here is clear: you are not interested in discussion, you are only interested in furthering your personal agenda of Islamophobia.

Nonetheless, here's my suggestion: before you learn to use Google, maybe learn how to read

I don't know when the MOST recent attacks were, but here are some pretty recent ones:

Christian: 2014

But that power void, exacerbated by a lax justice system, was quickly filled by anti-balaka. The groups of armed vigilantes, initially organized to combat local crime and whose ranks of Christians and animists includes ex-soldiers, have fought back against the militants and furiously targeted the Muslim minority, which they view as complicit in Séléka’s unpunished abuses.

Anti-balaka now stand accused of crimes worse than what prompted their retaliation as the burning of whole villages and gruesome mutilations, among other threats and attacks, have killed an untold number of people and pushed hundreds of thousands of others from their homes. Amid tales of ethnic cleansing in the west and as reports of crude attacks surface in the east, where Séléka remains in control and is regrouping, the country continues to slide into perhaps the bloodiest and most unstable crossroads of its independence.

Jewish: 2009 (and possibly more recently, depending on your position on the Israel/Palestine issue)

JERUSALEM, Israel - An alleged "Jewish terrorist" who immigrated to Israel from the United States has been arrested in connection with several bombings, murders and attempted murders in Israel, including the bombing in the community of Ariel that severely wounded a teenaged Messianic believer, Ami Ortiz.

Ortiz is the Israeli Christian boy who was nearly killed in a bombing attack that made news around the world.

The teenager miraculously survived the bombing in March 2008, when he opened a package disguised as a gift for the Jewish holiday of Purim. The bomb devastated the Ortiz family apartment, shattered car windows three stories below and left 15-year-old Ami Ortiz near death.

Israeli police say the suspect, 37-year-old Yaakov "Jack" Teitel, plotted to bomb the Ortiz family. According to court documents, police found explosives and weapons and in his home.

Teitel was arrested by an Israeli elite counter-terrorism unit on Oct. 7 while he was distributing flyers praising the bombing this summer of a Tel Aviv club that catered to gays and lesbians.

Buddhist: August 2013

A Buddhist mob has attacked a mosque in the Grandpass area of the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo, leaving at least five people injured.

Buddhists and Muslims clashed after the attack, and police imposed a curfew in the area.

Last month, a group of Buddhist monks had protested near the mosque, demanding it be relocated.

In recent months, hardline Buddhist groups have mounted a campaign against Muslim and Christian targets.

Anyway, I will not waste any more time on you, you're clearly a bigot with zero ability to conduct a rational discussion.

[Professor Polonsky]

Islam is far from the only religion whose adherents do the most terrible things in its name. Islamic fundamentalism is, however, probably of the highest concern to us, and so that necessitates some sort of coherent policy response.

Man Haron Monis sent letters to the family's of deceased soldiers from Afganistan, equating them as murders and calling from the removal of troops from Afghanistan. If he ever did get through to Tones on the day of the siege I'm sure he'd have lots to say about that. One of Osama Bin Laden's reasons behind attacking the US and the West was the occupation of US bases in Saudi Arabia, amongst other hatreds including US support of Isreal.

As your post foreshadows, the War in Afghanistan was a necessary act in collective self-defence, invoked under the UN Charter.

As for 9/11 itself, it was a response to perfectly legitimate foreign and domestic policy decisions by a host of actors in the Middle East. al-Qaeda didn't get things as it wanted them, so it decided to engage in one of the most reprehensible acts in the history of modern conflict, if not the most.

To suggest that Western countries 'brought it on themselves' is nothing more than victim blaming.