Why do you think so many people are bad at maths?

[xXNovaxX]

^^ i second that admin

[TrueTears]

"travel wherever they want" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a question: what have your experiences of living in China been like?

I am interested in hearing luke's response as well for this

[QuantumJG]

Since I love maths I want to have a indepth discussion about this.

Just a thought :smiley6600:. You hear so many times, whether in the news, real life experience, newspapers etc that we are falling behind in maths. You only have to look at schools! I've moved schools several times, and in each school (public/though not limited to), sooo many people achieve C's and D's. In our recent tests we had 1/3 yes 33% of year 12 maths students FAIL a SAC, and the highest in the class was a 65% i think it was, and also those that passed got like 40% or around 45%

In other schools we experienced 2-3 math teacher changes a year, some students balmed the teachers inabilty to speak english clearly (though surely this cannot be the main issue), others citing "not qualified", and some blaming "unable to teach". Its difficult to ssay that "people are bad at maths because they dont study", this cant be true for Maths isn't the only subject where people don't complete homeowkr. :crazy2: What i think the issue is...

• students doing poor at maths now, and grow up to teach maths as teachers at a poor level

• teachers not giving any homework in maths and checking (in every subejct we get homeowkr, and have it marked, in maths everyone bludges and doesn't do it knowing it wont be looked at)

I believe that english is a subject that isn't taught that well. Year 12 english is more like doing a very basic arts degree than actually learning english.

Maths and science in Australia is a growing, but, small area and its not considered that important. For example I bet that 60% of the population doesn't know what physics or calculus means. The people who end up loving maths don't become teachers for many reasons such as: High school maths is basic and high school teaching would be annoying. The people who are good at maths will become engineers, physicists, mathematicians, actuaries, etc.

I am personally considering a maths major (I'm also considering physics, mathematical physics or electrical engineering) and at the end of the day I would be much more interested in writing a paper with my own original research (and becoming a professor to give detailed lectures in an area that interests me) than trying to teach someone the basics (Teaching someone the basics of maths is sort of like trying to explain why an apple is an apple).

• some textbooks use very poor/limited examples, maths is a subject which needs a lot more in dpeth information and detail/diagrams/examples than  say English or msuic, or art. This causes confusion and an inability to approach problems/excersies in OTHER textbooks

Any thoughts woiuld be interetsing

The thing with maths is that to become good at it you must do heaps of problems to be able to understand what you are doing and why. The thing I love with maths is that its not rote memory, its developing skills to solve problems.

[Mao]

The right to freedom is self-evident and universal.

I agree to this opinion, but I cannot accept it as a fact. That statement I believe is strongly related to the way society works. A person who does not know what freedom is probably wouldn't desire it.

Also,

"If something is either A or B, and we can't prove it to be A, it doesn't necessarily mean it is B."
Sum of probabilities equals one.

You are misunderstanding. Just because you cannot prove it to be A, doesn't mean it is not A.
Just because you cannot prove God's existence, doesn't mean God does not exist.

[EvangelionZeta]

"If something is either A or B, and we can't prove it to be A, it doesn't necessarily mean it is B."
Sum of probabilities equals one.
"travel wherever they want" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"doesn't amount to anything other than you posting your emotional response to a certain line of thought." LOL!!!! You better not be Chinese!

This is logic and rationality, not maths.  Learn to (lolol) differentiate.

"What are the negative effects of not having the rights Chinese people don't have?"
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tiananmen+square

Because modern China is still ruled by a dictatorship mentality.  There's a difference between not having an unlimited amount of freedom and having an oppressive government - again, refer to Plato's Republic.

The right to freedom is self-evident and universal.

I agree intuitively, but unless you can justify WHY you think so, I don't think it's a valid point in what amounts to a rational argument.  Intuitively, you might also think that you have free will, whereas to justify that you actually have free will is actually very hard, and hence using "we are free" in an argument (that for whatever reason) involves human beings being free is dismissable.

[QuantumJG]

...Australia is home to many prized mathematicians and scientists.

Umm yes...

That is why its 2009 and Australia has no nuclear power plants, thats why Australian physicists go over to Europe to do some real physics and thats why Australia has just put up its first synchrotron.

Trust me if you want to do some real cool maths or physics you need to be in the US, Japan or Europe

[Mao]

• some textbooks use very poor/limited examples, maths is a subject which needs a lot more in dpeth information and detail/diagrams/examples than  say English or msuic, or art. This causes confusion and an inability to approach problems/excersies in OTHER textbooks

Any thoughts woiuld be interetsing

The thing with maths is that to become good at it you must do heaps of problems to be able to understand what you are doing and why. The thing I love with maths is that its not rote memory, its developing skills to solve problems.

I'm not too keen to agree with 'must do heaps of problems', but more so 'to be able to understand what you are doing and why'. The prior build up ROUTINE, the latter build up UNDERSTANDING.

The ability to understand the logic behind proofs, corollaries and theorems and be able to understand their implications and solve problem with it, that is the real indication of whether someone is 'good' at maths. But not everyone is capable of dealing with [mostly] abstract logic like this, or rather, most people aren't trained to interpret abstract logic (due to limited exposure at young age).

The key to success in mathematics, I believe, is early exposure to reason and logic, so that it has already become a mental framework for the child when it's time to learn maths. But how can you expect young children to actively pursue 'reason and logic'? You cannot, and that is where the success of the typical Asian child comes from, choices made for the child, discipline right from the start, which is basically a deprivation of freedom. As for how well that works, it is up to much debate. Though the quality of this debate and equal representation cannot be guarenteed, as an intellectual discussion on this topic requires reason and logic.

On another note,

"What are the negative effects of not having the rights Chinese people don't have?"
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tiananmen+square

Because modern China is still ruled by a dictatorship mentality.  There's a difference between not having an unlimited amount of freedom and having an oppressive government - again, refer to Plato's Republic.

I am starting to get a feeling that it is part of the Chinese culture to dictate and control others.

[xXNovaxX]

Since I love maths I want to have a indepth discussion about this.

Just a thought :smiley6600:. You hear so many times, whether in the news, real life experience, newspapers etc that we are falling behind in maths. You only have to look at schools! I've moved schools several times, and in each school (public/though not limited to), sooo many people achieve C's and D's. In our recent tests we had 1/3 yes 33% of year 12 maths students FAIL a SAC, and the highest in the class was a 65% i think it was, and also those that passed got like 40% or around 45%

In other schools we experienced 2-3 math teacher changes a year, some students balmed the teachers inabilty to speak english clearly (though surely this cannot be the main issue), others citing "not qualified", and some blaming "unable to teach". Its difficult to ssay that "people are bad at maths because they dont study", this cant be true for Maths isn't the only subject where people don't complete homeowkr. :crazy2: What i think the issue is...

• students doing poor at maths now, and grow up to teach maths as teachers at a poor level

• teachers not giving any homework in maths and checking (in every subejct we get homeowkr, and have it marked, in maths everyone bludges and doesn't do it knowing it wont be looked at)

I believe that english is a subject that isn't taught that well. Year 12 english is more like doing a very basic arts degree than actually learning english.

Maths and science in Australia is a growing, but, small area and its not considered that important. For example I bet that 60% of the population doesn't know what physics or calculus means. The people who end up loving maths don't become teachers for many reasons such as: High school maths is basic and high school teaching would be annoying. The people who are good at maths will become engineers, physicists, mathematicians, actuaries, etc.

I am personally considering a maths major (I'm also considering physics, mathematical physics or electrical engineering) and at the end of the day I would be much more interested in writing a paper with my own original research (and becoming a professor to give detailed lectures in an area that interests me) than trying to teach someone the basics (Teaching someone the basics of maths is sort of like trying to explain why an apple is an apple).

• some textbooks use very poor/limited examples, maths is a subject which needs a lot more in dpeth information and detail/diagrams/examples than  say English or msuic, or art. This causes confusion and an inability to approach problems/excersies in OTHER textbooks

Any thoughts woiuld be interetsing

The thing with maths is that to become good at it you must do heaps of problems to be able to understand what you are doing and why. The thing I love with maths is that its not rote memory, its developing skills to solve problems.

ur spot on . One of my old maths teachers used to be a physicist i think she said, and she did masters etc etc, so i found it strange she became a teacher. But she said she is considering going back to working in her field. Ur correct in saying u would rather do ur own research papers etc then teach basic maths. But is a vicious cycle--->complicate basic maths anymore would see more people fail-->make it too simplified-->students become teachers who only understand simplified maths.

And just in regard to ur English topic, ur right!! I am an apt student in english, but i find it strange why we spend time learning how to rite a speech on an issue, or idenifty the VOICE of a writer in language analysis etc, when so many students fail to proeprly use basic grammar, sophisticated language etc. I am not saying language anyslis etc is useless, but you would think, more emphasis was placed on grammar etc. In English i feel that those who are ABLE to go further, are restrained by those who don';t read the set texts, don't do the h/w, etc etc. But linking it back to maths (otherwise i'd be a hypocrite xD), it all comes down to the student i guess sometimes, thoguh teachers do play a big part (hahaha, is that a good way of linking english to maths )[/list]

[xXNovaxX]

@ MOA  "But how can you expect young children to actively pursue 'reason and logic'? That is where the success of the typical Asian child comes from, discipline right from the start, a deprivation of freedom of choice as a youngling. As for how well that works, that is up to much debate."

----Ur right, i think tahst where some people who are arguing have misunderstood. Whereas many of the chinese, etc people on here (correct me if im wrong), think its THESE methods which have helped make them who they are, others see it as "dictatorship" or a lack of freedom. However i really do think we have a lot to learn from many otehr countries, including China, India, the middle east in some instances, as well as Europe, to how they approach learning and education.

[xXNovaxX]

...Australia is home to many prized mathematicians and scientists.

Umm yes...

That is why its 2009 and Australia has no nuclear power plants, thats why Australian physicists go over to Europe to do some real physics and that's why Australia has just put up its first synchrotron.

Trust me if you want to do some real cool maths or physics you need to be in the US, Japan or Europe

LOLLLLLLLLLL, check mate? xD. All these points are valid, and its true, my former teacher went to Europe to do physics, and she explained how over there science is broken up into branches e.g. bio, chem etc, form like year 7, not like here where its "Science" until year 11 where it breaks up. And Japan, phow, they're the technology guru's. A nation with minimal natural resources, has been able to become the 2nd largest economy in the world, with  a population who is hard working, intelligent, and wonderful.  On the other hand, @lukeperry- i think once these projects "kick off", more interest will evolve in science here, and eventually maybe education outcomes would imrpove etc. It's just in japan etc they focused on technology and development very early on, and have grown to become what they are now. In Australia, we are a relatively new country, and have for a longgggg time been mainly agriculturally based. So time!

[enwiabe]

To people saying "justify freedom being self-evident", I direct you to Alan Gewirth's logical argument which proceeds as follows:

1) Every agent must regard freedom and well-being as necessary goods, as without them we cannot act – cannot be an agent – at all.

Logically, every agent then either

(2) must regard freedom and wellbeing as rights or

(3) must accept that others can curtail his or her freedom and wellbeing.

However, (3) would contradict (1) so therefore every agent must accept (2) to avoid a contradiction. Therefore consistency requires all agents to act to claim their own rights. But to claim rights necessarily entails accepting duties, so the agent must recognize rights for other people. Therefore, it must be concluded that to violate somebody’s rights to freedom and well-being involves the agent in selfcontradiction.

[anconeous]

Wasn't maths declared a national priority, i.e. lower HECS band

It would seems that many beleive Australia is in need in the mathematics area

[QuantumJG]

I never said Terry Tao was a genius because of his parents, I just said his background obviously helped him become one.

btw isn't the math education in the US worse than in Australia :S

Yes I have heard all kinds of stories such as US students having a really bad knowledge about where countries are.

In the US though if you were to pursue academia as a mathematician or physicist you have a lot more cool things to sink your teeth into than with Australia.

[Glockmeister]

Wasn't maths declared a national priority, i.e. lower HECS band

It would seems that many beleive Australia is in need in the mathematics area

ALL sciences have been put into the National Priority band (Band 0)

[QuantumJG]

Perhaps the reason why not as many Aussies pursue math is due to negative cultural stereotypes. In our culture, it is the norm to think that sports is cool and maths is nerdy. Maths is non-conformist!

Obviously you don't talk to the right people.  Everyone I know thinks maths is king-god-man of the earth.

Maths is cool.

I miss the days when the news paper would have "do you know what an x-ray is (shown to me by my physics teacher this was printed much earlier than when I was born)?"

What was sad was there was a news paper printed with a small section about Einstein getting the Nobel prize.

Where as pages are taken up by AFL politics, so I guess /O has a point.