Arts/Law or Commerce/Law?

[StressedAlready]

Soooo... VCE life has this thing where it enjoys pressuring you into making life decisions. We had some careers things today and I am srsly questioning my future aspirations. University seems so near it's depressing.

Here's the thing: I love math, science AND english. I do well in all of them (my worst presently is A's for physics, all else A+)

I'm a year 11 btw and am doing units 3 + 4 specialist AND methods as well as english, literature, physics and chemistry. I really want to go into arts law (= human rights lawyer?) or commerce/law.

My Question, however, is how do you decide what course you want to do? My biggest concern is going into a course and HATING it and I know that I can just change courses, etc, etc but idk. Is there any way of ascertaining which course is best for me without going to that trouble???

Like yeah, all my teachers are going, "just do whatever you love" or whatever, but tbh, I have nooo idea if I actually WANT to go into arts/law/commerce. I think I do but I'm rlly concerned that coming from a strong law-background, me wanting to go into law be it arts/law or commerce/law is really just a product of my upbringing???

[brenden]

If I were you I'd do a computer science and math degree. Screw law :p. I think it's likely a product of your upbringing if you're a mathsy person. Not much math in law, that's for sure. Probably all of our upbringings. We're told lawyers are so smart bla bla bla.

Go on seek.com.au and click the tab "jobs over 150k". Check the figures on different fields

[ninwa]

Here's the thing, like 90% of law students want to be a "human rights lawyer" when they graduate. The reality is:
1) very few people actually end up being human rights lawyers, it's a very tiny niche
2) it matters very little what degree you did with your law degree. It's all about how you form your career. Hell, Julian Burnside, one of the most well-known human rights lawyers in Australia, started off his career as a commercial lawyer for rich people.

So have another think and figure out roughly what it is you actually want to do with your life, and/or what you want out of your life.

Do you want to 'make a change' in some policy area? (don't be a lawyer)
Do you want to be rich and famous? (don't be a lawyer)
Do you want to do just enough to ensure you can raise a family and have a nice work-life balance? (don't be a lawyer)
Do you like paperwork a lot? (be a lawyer)

Once you figure this out, then we can give you some more useful advice

PS: I hated my course for most of it, but ended up enjoying it and now it's helped me get a job that I absolutely love. So even if you do end up choosing wrongly, you can always 1) change courses, or 2) ride it out and see what happens.

PPS: just because you're good at English doesn't mean you'll be good at law

[keltingmeith]

You say you love maths and science, but you're not considering a STEM career at all? Any particular reason?

[zhenzhenzhen]

+1 on computer science/software engineering at Monash. Not being sexist or anything, but there is a huge demand for women in the field, and if you're any good at it, and get into a good IBL program at Monash you literally walk into jobs that pay pretty well.

Also, there is no way your choices in year 11/12 map out your entire life. You can change courses, do postgrad - there are always many pathways for you to get where you want to go, even if you do make the decision later in life.

Look at my signature as an example, haha.

[StressedAlready]

So here's the thing: Me + computers = ENEMIES. I srsly want nothing to do with technology/software as a career -- I know that much lol.

STEM careers? What are they?

So lawyers = no money, no changing stuff and no work-life balance. So what's a PRO to law? Are there any?? O.o

I know. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, hence why I'm so worried because I can't figure out if law's an actual thing I WANT to do or if I just THINK I want to do it.

Like idk. I love math and english and would totally love to pursue a career where I can have both -- Does such a career exist? Is this where I have to choose which I love more?

 My school careers teachers keep telling me commerce is math, law is english, ergo, commerce/law!!! Is this actually true?

[zhenzhenzhen]

Math is math, english is english. Those two are tools that enable you to study commerce or law. The same tools that enable you to study nursing, or history, or engineering.

What's most important you in life? To earn money, to make a difference, to help people, to heal people... Figure that out and you'll be halfway there

[M_BONG]

Ok put it this way. If you're good, you're going to succeed and get a job anyway. It doesn't matter if the employment rate for what you're doing is like 40% - it's hard but it's possible. So don't just be deterred because everyone says it's hard.

To answer your specific questions (out of sequence)..

Commerce has a large part of Maths. There are core units you need to do which will inevitably require maths. You get to learn a lot about principles to do with transactions, markets, economies etc so I would put it under the massive umbrella of "Business and Corporations" but nothing much about the "human" side of things - eg langauges, politics, philosophy, psychology etc. These are very technical in nature.

I do Arts and I can tell you that I am loving my course. But fair enough, I am only first year. But don't give in to generalisations - I don't even know what kind of lawyer I want to be yet, and that is in no way a sign of me not suited for law. Arts is a lot about research (writing essays etc) skills, learning concepts etc that aren't very technical in nature. This is why a lot of haters of Arts say a lot of what you learn in Arts, you can learn at home using the internet (not true, of course).

---
So the end message is: yes, accept Law is hard/boring/whatever. Yes, law is competitive. And yes, everyone thinks it's easy to be famous + rich. And yes everyone wants to be a HR or Criminal lawyer (but I would think people change this thought after like 1st/2nd year). But that shouldn't be reason enough to stop you from doing it if you really want to. Why? Because if you're good enough and if you want it enough, you will succeed anyway. Stereotypes like "paperwork for your whole career" just won't cut it (no pun intended).

[zhenzhenzhen]

The problem is that she isn't sure that she really wants to do law. And in my honest opinion, year 11 is way too early to decide or be sure of what you want to be doing for the majority of your career life.

[ninwa]

So lawyers = no money, no changing stuff and no work-life balance. So what's a PRO to law? Are there any?? O.o

I know. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, hence why I'm so worried because I can't figure out if law's an actual thing I WANT to do or if I just THINK I want to do it.

Because in the good old days it used to be lawyer = money and fame and respect in the community.

That was before most of the universities in Australia started offering law degrees and every person and their dog decided to get one.

Now the market is extremely saturated, which means too many lawyers and not enough jobs, which means pay goes down and law firms can treat you like shit because they know there are 100 other people lining up to take your job if you don't like it. And people don't realise that because they haven't realised the good old days are over.

Have a read of these, which are from my Law FAQ:
Australian awash with law graduates
‘It is the worst time in living history to be a law graduate’
Lawyers and depression
Graduates slip down the salary ladder as other professions offer big money

For the sake of objectivity - there are obviously good sides to being a lawyer. Nothing beats the rush when you successfully win a case for a client, or help someone out of a tough spot. And it is definitely possible to have a work-life balance - however, being a lawyer will be just one of those careers where that balance is harder to find (just like investment banking or medicine I imagine).

Also, a law degree does open up doors to non-lawyer careers as well - What else can I do with a law degree?

So the end message is: yes, accept Law is hard/boring/whatever. Yes, law is competitive. And yes, everyone thinks it's easy to be famous + rich. And yes everyone wants to be a HR or Criminal lawyer (but I would think people change this thought after like 1st/2nd year). But that shouldn't be reason enough to stop you from doing it if you really want to. Why? Because if you're good enough and if you want it enough, you will succeed anyway. Stereotypes like "paperwork for your whole career" just won't cut it (no pun intended).

This is a nice sentiment but it's idealistic and misleading. Paperwork is not a stereotype - it is a reality of being a lawyer and I think that as a first year, it is really irresponsible of you to be dismissing things you have little experience of.

There are tonnes of unemployed or underemployed law graduates out there who were good enough and wanted it enough but there just are not enough jobs for them. Read this: Exclusive: Law firms let down clerks - only the top law students get clerkships and even they're not getting jobs. There's no point putting your head in the sand.

[M_BONG]

I went into Year 12 knowing I reallly wanted to do law. But everyone told me to not do it because I won't get a job etc etc etc. At one point I was ready to switch to Commerce at Melbourne or something to please these people. Im so fortunate I didn't give in to these skeptics who think their own experiences can be applied universally to people (ie. career counsellors etc)

The problem is that she isn't sure that she really wants to do law. And in my honest opinion, year 11 is way too early to decide or be sure of what you want to be doing for the majority of your career life.

" I really want to go into arts law (= human rights lawyer?) or commerce/law"


This suggests otherwise.

There are tonnes of unemployed or underemployed law graduates out there who were good enough and wanted it enough but there just are not enough jobs for them. Read this: Exclusive: Law firms let down clerks - only the top law students get clerkships and even they're not getting jobs. There's no point putting your head in the sand.

Yes I don't dispute this but the main reason for my post is to acknowledge these problems are out there but since OP said they really wanted to get into law, this shouldn't stop them.

Also, your whole post is suggesting that going into law = practicing in law. Skills learned in law are transferrable as well.

At the end of the day, I am still a first year I guess, sorry for trying to sound informed/ experienced/putting my head in the sand.

[Wharton]

I'm here to ask a question that is semi-relevant and could possibly benefit OP as well. I'm curious what 'prestigious' jobs aren't saturated? I've heard all over whirlpool's forums that every field is becoming a lot more saturated year by year, such as engineering?

Sorry for derailing your thread 

[Reckoner]

At OP: Putting all of the discussion about law aside, doing arts/law would be a bit of challenge if you love maths + science as well imo. You may find that only focusing on your "English" interests, you grow to miss science, even if you don't want a science career. I'm doing commerce, and despite the bit of maths that's involved, have done engineering and science units as electives simply because I missed that way of thinking and learning. Just something to think about.

You say you love maths and science, but you're not considering a STEM career at all? Any particular reason?

For me, it's that I like learning and thinking about the stuff, but research and the application doesn't appeal to me. I think what it comes down to is I like the thought processes involved in trying to learn STEM, but once I have I sort of think "that's nice" and move on (or teach it to someone else - the science career I would be, and am, most drawn is teaching).

I'm here to ask a question that is semi-relevant and could possibly benefit OP as well. I'm curious what 'prestigious' jobs aren't saturated? I've heard all over whirlpool's forums that every field is becoming a lot more saturated year by year, such as engineering?

Sorry for derailing your thread 

Similar to what ninwa said, most of the prestigious careers had a fairly significant barrier to entry - a degree. Now that barrier is much smaller (more people getting degrees), so of course they're becoming more saturated since more people can overcome the barrier. I'd hazard a guess and say of the traditionally prestigious careers, medicine would be the least saturated (I'm not saying it's necessarily in a good state, or that it doesn't have good prospects - just that law/investment banking/engineering are probably in a worse place). Although I'm happy to be proven otherwise here. It also depends on what you deem to be "prestigious" of course.

Also, whirlpool does have the odd bitter person, and the views of the people who post there are not necessarily a good sample of the general public. That's not to say there is no sense at all, just be wary of some of the negative threads. 

[Rohmer]

Here's the thing, like 90% of law students want to be a "human rights lawyer" when they graduate. The reality is:
1) very few people actually end up being human rights lawyers, it's a very tiny niche

Very true. Also, I suspect many of these people aren't aware of the types of law that are generally quite relevant for human rights lawyers...Admin & Consti.

It'd be easier trying to get a clerkship with the big 6 (which in itself is very difficult, although in Melbourne once you have a clerkship you're generally not far off the job itself).

[StressedAlready]

Best case scenario: Getting paid to do stuff I don’t mind/love doing so that I can enjoy life without money concerns. I think growing up with a lower socioeconomic background has a lot to do with this – though I was never deprived of anything I wanted growing up, or even now, I sort of like the comfort/security of having money…? Does that make sense? Like I don’t want to go into a career I love but struggle with $$$.

I don’t care much for becoming a gazillionaire like some of the other srsly deluded kids at my school (like legit, I know a guy whose life plan looks like this: Win the lottery, life problem solved), but earning sufficient amounts of money so as to ensure I don’t have to stress is a big deal for me anyway.

BUT the big thing is not getting trapped by a “well paying” job. Like duh. I’ve seen this isn’t true. VCE in itself highlights this. Some girls I know chose VCE Physics purely for the scaling and they’re currently failing + planning on dropping out of the subject at the end of the semester. So obviously, there’s some truth to the fact that “If you’re good you’re going to succeed and get a job”.

You’re totally right ninwa. 3/5 of my elder cousins went into Arts/Law – one graduates this year actually and she’s anticipating unemployment, despite her good academic record. So I’m getting a little antsy. I am petrified of finishing my course with a degree and thousands in debt and no job in sight, y’know?

Gah. The dumb thing is I can’t choose. Like it shouldn’t be this hard to know what I do/don’t like. Like there are some kids that love math/science/English. And then there’s me who loves them all – or thinks she does anyway.

I’m going to be that 1/5 first year students who changes course. I just know it…

Rohmer: What is Admin & Costi? And what are the big 6?