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October 29, 2025, 12:10:25 pm

Author Topic: Arts (criticism thread)  (Read 27355 times)  Share 

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Ninox

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2008, 10:03:15 pm »
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I'm liable to get shot down since I'm studying maths/science subjects, but I do also have a strong respect for students of the Arts subjects. Having not studied arts, I cant say much about career prospects, but I certainly consider myself the only maths/science person I know of my peer group not to bag the artsy people. *end vague rant*
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Collin Li

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2008, 10:08:31 pm »
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I'm certainly not someone who seriously bags arts students, but I will openly criticise suggestions that Arts takes you to managerial positions often. It doesn't, and although there are a few exceptions, the Bachelor of Commerce will do it much better. Also, brendan has posted a study that contends the Arts degree needs to be revamped. I would agree, especially if the current system is costing taxpayers money (i.e.: not giving their HECS contribution back to society).

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2008, 10:17:30 pm »
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http://cis.org.nz/issue_analysis/IA12/IA12.PDF

"Recent graduates from the humanities (those with degrees in languages, literature,
history, philosophy, etc.) and social sciences (those who have studied fields such as
sociology, criminology, anthropology, community work and geography) perform poorly
in the labour market.

Four months after completing their courses in 1998, 13% of humanities graduates
and 14% of social science graduates were looking for work, compared to an overall
unemployment rate for people over 20 of 6.9%. In other words, these graduates were
around twice as likely to be unemployed as others in the labour market.

The performance of humanities and social science graduates was significantly worse
than for other people who qualified for their degree in 1998. Business related courses
had a peak unemployment rate of 8.1%. No field within health education did worse
than having 5.5% of graduates unemployed. Graduates looking for work in agriculture
had a much easier time of it, with only 5.1% being unemployed. Overall, the graduate
unemployment rate was 8%.

Unfortunately these figures make the employment situation of humanities and social
science graduates appear much better than it really is. There are large numbers of
graduates who are working, but only in part-time or casual jobs, and who would like
full-time work.
For graduates as a whole, this group in early 1999 was 11.2% of those
in the labour force. The humanities were much worse at 18% and the social sciences
worse still at 20.9%. Add together the unemployment and underemployment rates and
you have over 30% of graduates in these fields who want full-time jobs but are without
them four months out.

Even these gloomy figures understate the employment problem, due to the high
number of students in these fields who remain in full-time study."

"Data from the 1996 census enables us to break down
graduate income by age groups. It showed that the peak median salary for humanities
graduates, achieved in the 45-49 age bracket, was $37,900 a year. That was well below
the median salary for graduates overall of $45,100, indicating that the wage dispersal
evident between disciplines as graduates enter the workforce widens over time.
In contrast, the social sciences improve, reaching a median salary of $45,200 in the
45-49 age bracket, just above that for graduates generally. The impression that medicine,
law and dentistry are financially rewarding is confirmed by the census data, with their
median salaries at age 45-49 being $78,000, $63,500 and $60,800 respectively."
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 10:21:23 pm by brendan »

Nick

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2008, 10:21:43 pm »
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Brendan I am well aware of those statistics which were posted quite some time ago.

I'm not really sure whether I want to over-analyse statistics which are eight years old.
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Rietie

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2008, 10:33:37 pm »
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Why are people being so mean to the Arts? The degree might not lead one to a high-paying job, but Arts, especially fine art and the performing arts (hey, its got the word art in it - it counts) make people happy. And that's what counts.... as well as living on the dole to survive on between random spurts of employment.
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Collin Li

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2008, 10:42:32 pm »
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It matters if it means that taxpayers money is being plunged into degrees that don't get people jobs (where they can pay it back).

BA22

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2008, 10:46:22 pm »
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With the medical student tsunami approaching the QLD government has refused to guarantee internships for local graduates. This guarantee is made in other states however. Notre Dame uni in WA has accrediatation issues with its med curse and must rely on UWA to assist their students graduate.

Arts is not the only course where taxpayer money maybe going to waste

Rietie

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2008, 11:04:58 pm »
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I think people should at least be allowed to study whatever interests them. It would be horrible going into law or medicine or dentistry (god forbid) just because you got a high enough mark and there are heaps of jobs available in that sector, despite your passion and your real talent and skills lying in fine art. That would be a waste and a loss for the world for a possible Picasso (or something not quite as good as that) to go into the boring life of dentistry when painting is so much more interesting for him or her and where he or she can contribute to the world of Art.

Another thing - I don't view money going into Arts as being wasted but more going to the education of students who love Arts and are interested in it. Why should they have to not have the choice in going into the profession they want? And I think you severely underestimate the number of jobs available for Arts students. I think they're all just going into the wrong department in Arts. I know for a fact that the department for National Heritage (or something) has heaps of jobs available for historians and the like. It is one of the worst under-staffed departments in Australia.
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brendan

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2008, 11:09:55 pm »
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I (and probably collin too) have no problem with people doing Arts degrees, or any degree, as long as they fully pay for it themselves, either upfront, or later when they are earning an income (HELP loans).

Collin Li

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2008, 11:10:22 pm »
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You're one of those people who think museums and theatres should be propped up at the expense of the taxpayer even if it can't last commercially right?

It's wrong because if it can't last commercially, it means there was little or no consumer demand for it anyway! It is one thing to say you have the freedom to choose what area of study you like, but it is another thing to say you have the right to take from somebody else in order to pay the costs for it. If people really appreciated fine arts as much as you suggest, there would be great demand for it, and the paintings would sell for heaps (and it does, in some cases), but if statistically, the results aren't very good, and taxpayers money is going into it, there needs to be some thought about the direction that an Arts degree takes you.

brendan

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2008, 11:19:35 pm »
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http://www.cis.org.au/Policy/winter00/polwin00-9.htm

The Struggle for Thought: Arts Degrees and University Micromanagement
By Andrew Norton
Click here for PDF version

Arts degrees are touchy subjects as Andrew Norton found upon the release of Degrees of Difficulty, a CIS paper examining the labour market problems of humanities and social science graduates. Yet the criticism has missed the real theory behind the paper.

In Australia, student places are allocated to universities according to a government quota. Fortunately for the universities, though not for the students who annually miss out on places, this quota is set well below actual demand. Getting into university in Australia is like a giant game of musical chairs, in which when the music stops there are always many more children than chairs. If you want a place, you are wise to grab one, even if it is not your first choice. A survey of first-year students showed that 32% of them did not get into their course of first choice, and of this group nearly a quarter received their fourth or fifth choice.

While not all students will get into their preferred course in a completely deregulated system either, this figure of a third missing their first preference, plus those who get into no course at all, suggests that a quota-based system, as opposed to a student choice based system, has trouble matching universities and students.

More mismatch is caused by the way student places are funded. Universities get a subsidy for each student within their quota, and no direct funding from students or other sources. The HECS charge goes to the government, not the universities.

A decade ago there was some relationship between the subsidy and the cost, but this has since broken down. New student places have generally been funded at an average rate, and universities have been able to adjust the proportions of their students they have in the various disciplines. Effectively, universities now get an average subsidy, rather than one weighted according to cost.

My theory in Degrees of Difficulty is that breaking the link between subsidy and cost affects the distribution of student places between courses. As universities have come under severe financial pressure they have had to cut costs, and one way to control expenditure is to concentrate growth in cheap-to-provide courses. In the last decade, growth in annual commencing places in cheap-to-provide courses has been more than 67,000, compared to less than 38,000 in relatively expensive-to-provide courses. Of the 67,000, around 24,000 were in Arts. The growth patterns may well have been different if top-up fees could be charged, making internal course decisions more cost neutral.

A genuine choice?

Some contributors to forums on this issue say that the growth in Arts simply reflects student demand. While nobody forces students to study Arts, I believe that that the distortions in supply are feeding back into student preferences, to the point that we cannot tell to what extent they represent studentsÕ real choices.

Take for example the effect growth in the number of student places in a particular course will have on the scores required for admission. Beyond a certain point, the scores do not reflect the difficulty of the course, but supply and demand. Holding demand constant, an increase in supply will depress the score required, and vice-versa. Therefore, a system like this will, all other things being equal, make Arts easier to get into, relative to the courses growing more slowly.

Prospective students, about 45% of them in one survey, adjust their study preferences according to their likely Year 12 results. For students who are going to do only moderately well, this means that the relatively easy entrance requirements of Arts are an attraction, and so they will rank Arts highly if they want a university education. In this way, the distortions of supply structure the stated preferences of students, creating a spurious appearance of universities being responsive to student demands.

The quality consequences of little competition

Arts faculties do not claim that their degrees are directly vocational, but they do say that they teach employable skills. For example, at the University of New South Wales they say that an Arts degree provides Ôskills of research, analysis, and the ability to write clearly and consistently.Õ It would be hard to disagree with the benefits of all those skills.

While these skills can be learned in humanities and social science degrees, they are generally not systematically taught. They tend to be learnt indirectly by observing others, by practice in researching and writing essays, and through feedback on assessed material. WithÊ resourceful students and teachers who have the ability and time to provide guidance, these skills will be learned and enhanced. But an employer would be unwise to assume that the graduate had high level thinking and writing skills. Indeed, a survey by ACNielsen found that employers thought their Arts graduates had below average literacy skills.

A private university like Bond ensures that all graduates have the generic skills employers would expect. All students complete units in communication, information technology, values and organisations. Employers cannot be so assured that a graduate from universities without similar systematic teaching and testing of general skills does in fact possess them.

At the moment, Bond has a huge price disadvantage, but with real competition other universities are likely to develop innovative schemes to improve their graduatesÕ employability.

The employment consequences

The cumulative effect of government regulation of the universities has, I believe, been to produce a lack of connection between the skills graduates have and the skills needed in the labour market.

Since the mid-1970s Arts graduates have in each decade been experiencing a more difficult transition from study to work, to the point where more than 30% are still looking for full-time work four months after graduating. While their labour market position improves substantially over time, they never come close to matching their peers in some other degrees. People with degrees in what the Australian Bureau of Statistics calls Ôsociety and cultureÕ have unemployment rates about 50% above those of graduates generally. Wages too remain well below average, probably partly because some graduates are working in jobs for which degrees are not required.

Given that many Arts graduates are people of above average intelligence, who have invested three years or more in studying, this is a waste of talent and ability.

Is a liberal arts degree worthless?

No, of course not. I spent six years studying liberal arts subjects, and found it a worthwhile experience. However, I also believe that those who want to enhance their employability and make themselves eligible for high skill jobs can legitimately expect to do so through a university education. I do not share the intellectual snobbery of some Arts academics who look down on the grubby business of making money.

A deregulated system would probably see a lower proportion of students studying just Arts, though with added growth in double degrees and access to the pool of prospective students excluded from higher education by the quota system, probably not a drop in absolute numbers. Added revenue from fees would ease the chronic financial problems of most Arts faculties.

The tragedy of the Arts faculties is that the principal victims of their stubborn opposition to change is their own students. No wonder so few Australians feel inclined to give money to their old university.

Author

Andrew Norton is a Research Fellow with The Centre for Independent Studies and Director of the Liberalising Learning programme. He works at the Vice ChancellorÕs office at The University of Melbourne. This is taken from a recent Issue Analysis paper entitled Degrees of Difficulty: The Labour Market Problems of Arts and Social Science Graduates.

Eriny

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2008, 11:22:58 pm »
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I think people should at least be allowed to study whatever interests them. It would be horrible going into law or medicine or dentistry (god forbid) just because you got a high enough mark and there are heaps of jobs available in that sector, despite your passion and your real talent and skills lying in fine art. That would be a waste and a loss for the world for a possible Picasso (or something not quite as good as that) to go into the boring life of dentistry when painting is so much more interesting for him or her and where he or she can contribute to the world of Art.

Another thing - I don't view money going into Arts as being wasted but more going to the education of students who love Arts and are interested in it. Why should they have to not have the choice in going into the profession they want? And I think you severely underestimate the number of jobs available for Arts students. I think they're all just going into the wrong department in Arts. I know for a fact that the department for National Heritage (or something) has heaps of jobs available for historians and the like. It is one of the worst under-staffed departments in Australia.
QFT

There is no use in someone who is talented in the fields of humanities and social sciences doing a degree that they aren't interested in. An unemployed arts graduate would be even more likely to become an unemployed science graduate.

If you have a focussed arts degree, you also shouldn't have too much trouble being employable. If not, further study is a good option too.

Also, it's definitely true that the humanities enrich our lives in general. Without history or literature or other similar fields, how do we find a sense of identity? How do we properly connect with people of different cultures without understanding how they got to where they are as well as their language? How can we maintain morale if all we do is go to work in a suit everyday, never bothering to reflect on why we live life at all? Or without any kind of aesthetic?

I (and probably collin too) have no problem with people doing Arts degrees, or any degree, as long as they fully pay for it themselves, either upfront, or later when they are earning an income (HELP loans).
Out of curiosity, are you against CSPs in general, or just to arts students?

brendan

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2008, 11:28:58 pm »
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I am not against income contingent loans like HECS-HELP and FEE-HELP. I support such loans and I think they are great.

Rietie

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2008, 11:39:48 pm »
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I tell you what also creates jobs? If you gave all that taxpayers money back to the taxpayer so that they could save, invest in capital and put it into a market that actually has demand. Funding museum or art exhibitions for the sake of "culture" sounds a lot like the Soviet Union to me: it is coercion to impose this "culture" (or at least imposing the costs of "culture") on to society. I think we should leave it at that and try to return to the issue. I wanted to make the point that the Arts degree is analogous to this to some extent. If we have a high rate of Arts graduates unable to pay back the HECS, then we really need to think about how the Arts degree is structured - that is all I am saying.

I am not against CSP for Arts. I would like to see it work. I'm not well informed about the issue, but if the statistics say that there is a high rate of default on these loans, then there should be careful thought about how the Arts degree leads to further employment. I'm not saying whether it is true or not, I'm just saying if that is the case, then we should have a look.

It would be great if all that money went back to the taxpayer and then they could invest, etc, etc. But not all have the knowledge about the economy, about commerce, finance, the share market, etc. I would have no idea how to invest into the market. I would be terrible at setting up some business. I would probably lose all the money in one minute. I would rather spend all that taxpayers money on doing another interesting course at uni or going on a trip to Bali or something else. The thing I would do before putting into the market would be pre-planning my own funeral and handpicking out the tombstone. At least I would know what tombstone would look nice, rather than having no knowledge in what shares are going to go up soon in value and investing in something stupid. I would bet if that taxpayers money went back to everyone, people would just blow it on alcohol, or gamble it away. Not everyone would do something that you would do. People do different things with their money and their time. Get used to it.
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Rietie

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Re: Arts (criticism thread)
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2008, 12:04:44 am »
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I apologize if I crossed that line or even went near it. I don't usually think before I speak (usually I do before I write) so I'm sorry if I insulted you.

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2008 - English (40), Literature (37), National Politics (37), Maths Methods (32), History Renaissance (39)
ENTER: 93.20

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