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Author Topic: Why did you do Spesh?  (Read 10703 times)  Share 

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alchemy

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 04:43:02 am »
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Generally speaking, which type of kids do you guys do better in spesh than in methods?

FYI I did way better in spesh than methods (47, 39 respectively), and I did both in year 12. But what is ur question?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 04:45:21 am by alchemy »

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 03:11:32 pm »
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FYI I did way better in spesh than methods (47, 39 respectively), and I did both in year 12. But what is ur question?

Assuming both are raw, why did you do better in spesh? Less monotonous? More fun? More time spent? Enlighten me because i also thought spesh was the "harder" one
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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 03:14:35 pm »
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The content in spesh is more intellectually challenging, but the methods exams are harder.

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 03:34:22 pm »
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The content in spesh is more intellectually challenging, but the methods exams are harder.
agreed! I feel as if Specialist is much easier than Methods (in some cases).

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 03:34:45 pm »
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The content in spesh is more intellectually challenging, but the methods exams are harder.

Is this actually accurate? Like I mentioned in my post, I've heard this said, but I haven't yet seen much of spesh exams. Are there no twisted questions in spesh or what? I don't really understand how this works, I thought if they twist up some parts of the methods exams, it would be more so in spesh :/
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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 03:42:52 pm »
+1
I'd say in my experience,  Methods exams normally have a lot of questions that will try to trick you, whereas the questions in the spesh exams are much more straightforward.

This is probably because it takes a lot more effort to separate the cohort in methods (since there are a lot more students, with varying levels of strength)  than spesh.
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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 04:17:30 pm »
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Is this actually accurate? Like I mentioned in my post, I've heard this said, but I haven't yet seen much of spesh exams. Are there no twisted questions in spesh or what? I don't really understand how this works, I thought if they twist up some parts of the methods exams, it would be more so in spesh :/

I found spesh exams more straight forward. I think it's because with methods, VCAA needs to throw in a few harder questions to separate the students in terms of ability. But with spesh, since the content is already quite a bit harder, a lot of the students would already have been separated?? Not quite sure haha
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babushka818

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 05:19:45 pm »
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Thanks guys, that makes sense! It was just a little confusing that thy wouldn't put really difficult questions in spesh, because the teacher I have is really passionate about maths and always gives us heaps of trick questions, so I just expected that in the exam. That's really encouraging haha! Thanks again for answering, and I do agree about methods needing more separation than spesh :)
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babushka818

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 06:43:08 pm »
+1
1) I was absolutely fascinated by the fact that you could have a square root of a negative number. Complex numbers was legitimately the gateway drug to vector calculus and mechanics for me :')

2) I was aiming for a high 99's ATAR so naturally, I chose Specialist since it scaled well, and it scaled above 50.

love complex numbers, conceptually it's awesome!
point 2 is so relevant to the other post discussing ATAR flaws :')
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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2016, 07:45:16 pm »
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The people who do really well in competition maths like Melb uni maths comp tend to do really well in Spesh (better or similar to their Methods scores - depending on how good it was). Generally though, it's possible to do better in Spesh as some people did Methods in year 11(Methods benefits Spesh, and the experience of a year 11 maths exam help them to do better in Spesh). There are also others who did both in the same year and neglected Methods as a result, so they did better in Spesh.
I have a slightly different viewpoint... I never did the AMC or any other maths comps for that matter (maybe except some preparation to get in to Dr. He haha). Uhm, Specialist is basically a proper calculus course, and if you have sufficient grounding in Methods (i.e. you got to be a good to really good methods student), it shouldn't be too hard. Personally, I found Specialist 'easier' than Methods in a range of ways, especially because stuff was 'continuous' and not 'discrete'.

With doing Methods in year 11, I really don't know, although there is an argument that doing Methods and Specialist together is good because you remember overlapped content better. For instance, this year's exam 1 for Specialist had a question to find the angle between two lines, which is a reasonably obscure and rarely tested Methods topic. Happily, I remembered the formula and did the question easily. For those who didn't (maybe because they did Methods prior), they would (a) go through a more lengthy and risky derivation (b) not get it (as I imagine many students would).

However, if I were given the opportunity to do Methods early, I'd probably do it, simply to get it out of the way.

Personally I got 48 in Methods and 47 in Spesh so usually Specialist is harder to score high in than Methods because of the nature of the content and exam (and maybe competition), in my opinion at least.
 
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zsteve

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2016, 07:48:32 pm »
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The content in spesh is more intellectually challenging, but the methods exams are harder.
Not sure about Specialist content being more intellectually challenging, it's just more advanced. And advanced != more challenging, quite a bit of the time. Anyway, Methods kids will have to do Specialist content in more rigor in Calc I, so why not skip stuff you can cover in vce? :)

And just interested: exactly what content seems to be harder in Specialist?
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pi

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2016, 08:09:39 pm »
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Not sure about Specialist content being more intellectually challenging, it's just more advanced. And advanced != more challenging, quite a bit of the time. Anyway, Methods kids will have to do Specialist content in more rigor in Calc I, so why not skip stuff you can cover in vce? :)

Nah I also think it was more intellectually challenging at times too, it being more advanced was something I thought was just inherent. There were some things that you couldn't truly learn and you needed to have some mathematical talent to do well (or to do quickly in an exam/SAC situation). As an example, see below.

And just interested: exactly what content seems to be harder in Specialist?

As an example, and could have just been me with my lack of prowess haha, but I found proofs (eg. vector proofs) to be more harder than anything in methods. I think you needed to be able to think in a "certain way" to be able to do these proofs quickly and I know many people who were fine with all other parts of the course, but struggled with these at times just because they required more "abstract" thinking (excuse my lack of vocabulary haha). Granted I don't think they turned up in my exam so in the end I was saved.

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2016, 08:12:55 pm »
+1
And just interested: exactly what content seems to be harder in Specialist?

Vectors, complex numbers, integration, conics - pretty much the whole thing is a new way of thinking that people aren't using.

Vectors? Since when can a number have a /direction/, that's just silly... Right?
Complex numbers? But they told us in methods that you can't have that... Why is there triangles now? And how does a number have an angle?
Integration? Well, differentiation is just follow the rules, so why do I need to think about this? Why isn't there a blanket rule?
Conics? Welp, hang on, is this a function of two variables? Why is there an equation, why does y=f(x)? How can you even have a y^2?

For someone who's mathematically gifted, it can be hard to see why people might find this stuff more intellectually difficult. :P However, it's just that specialist is a very different way of thinking than people are trained to do through all of high school. All the requisite knowledge is from those years, it's just a different way of using it, and that's what trips them up.

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2016, 08:32:25 pm »
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Vectors, complex numbers, integration, conics - pretty much the whole thing is a new way of thinking that people aren't using.

Vectors? Since when can a number have a /direction/, that's just silly... Right?
Complex numbers? But they told us in methods that you can't have that... Why is there triangles now? And how does a number have an angle?
Integration? Well, differentiation is just follow the rules, so why do I need to think about this? Why isn't there a blanket rule?
Conics? Welp, hang on, is this a function of two variables? Why is there an equation, why does y=f(x)? How can you even have a y^2?

For someone who's mathematically gifted, it can be hard to see why people might find this stuff more intellectually difficult. :P However, it's just that specialist is a very different way of thinking than people are trained to do through all of high school. All the requisite knowledge is from those years, it's just a different way of using it, and that's what trips them up.

Hmm... ook I kind of get the idea. But I'm still interested... (going a bit off topic now sorry)
- Vectors are very intuitively understood, and it takes no mathematical talent to see their myriad applications in physical situations? So it shouldn't be difficult to adapt? :P
- Complex numbers. Agreed, these can be conceptually tricky, but surely there aren't too many difficulties in execution?
- Integration, you're using some given info to find unknown information... whereas differentiation you're applying a definition and hence you'll have standard derivative rules. You can't do this to integrate because there isn't any 'definition' for integration that is comparatively simple as first principles?
- Conics... well students are introduced to circles in Methods? And conics are just weird variations on a circle?

Then again in Methods:
- Function notation, transformations (like why do you replace x with x/a when you dilate by factor a?), matrices (why does matrix transformation for a function rule work?), modulus (what does it do, and how does nesting your function affect the graph? e.g. f(abs(g(x)) or f(g(abs(x)))?
- Probability in general, Markov chains, binomial distribution, that stuff. Surely this is trickier both conceptually and practically than Specialist concepts? E.g. for the probability of 2 heads out of 3 tosses, why do I multiply by only 3 and not by 3*2 for 2 'heads' in different order (idk what that even means).
- Why Pr(X=exact value) for a continuous distribution zero? The 'measured values' argument doesn't work... can we explain this by the fact that a binary search for any exact value will never terminate, so its 'impossible' to assign a probability to X=sqrt(2)?

- calculation of approximate confidence intervals - you need to use approximation to relate p-hat to p, there's no way you can calculate the exact confidence interval unless you actually know p so we need to use the approximation relation. How does this even still work then? (excuse me if I'm talking rubbish, I tried to study the 2016 SD for tutoring, but I'm leaving it off till later now)

For these reasons, I'm inclined to view Methods as somewhat trickier than Specialist.

Disclaimer:
I'm not bragging of any 'mathematical talent' in asking these questions, I'm just sincerely interested in how Specialist may be perceived to be harder than Methods.

Pi: yes, vector proofs can be both tricky and time-consuming, I agree...like what are the minimal conditions to prove a parallelogram.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:36:03 pm by zsteve »
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keltingmeith

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Re: Why did you do Spesh?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2016, 08:51:31 pm »
+1
Hmm... ook I kind of get the idea. But I'm still interested... (going a bit off topic now sorry)

Eh, it's on topic as far as I can tell, so. :P

- Vectors are very intuitively understood, and it takes no mathematical talent to see their myriad applications in physical situations? So it shouldn't be difficult to adapt? :P

"Intuitively understood"? Because most people I speak to find them conceptually difficult to understand, and in particular, difficult to "picture" a vector. Not to mention that unless you've done physics, a lot of people don't see a lot of the applications of them

- Complex numbers. Agreed, these can be conceptually tricky, but surely there aren't too many difficulties in execution?

I've seen lots of kids struggle to work through stuff - common questions on the boards are questions like, "when do I apply De Moivre's Theorem and when do I let z=x+iy to solve z^2=thing?", despite the fact that either work. A lot of possibilities are opened up, but very little of complex analysis is breached, and so there's very little that can actually be asked, so a massive deal is made out of small things. It creates a false sense of grandeur among a lot of students I've spoken to, and that's intimidating in itself.

- Integration, you're using some given info to find unknown information... whereas differentiation you're applying a definition and hence you'll have standard derivative rules. You can't do this to integrate because there isn't any 'definition' for integration that is comparatively simple as first principles?

And THAT'S what makes it difficult. It's easy to explain why you can't use rules as simply as you can differentiation, but that doesn't make the act of trying to find an integral any easier.

- Conics... well students are introduced to circles in Methods? And conics are just weird variations on a circle?

I will admit I stretched a bit there. :P However, it's still a step up for things that people aren't used to, particularly because most kids have to learn the general rules, because they trouble connecting the transformations of functions with the transformations of relationships.

Then again in Methods:
- Function notation, transformations (like why do you replace x with x/a when you dilate by factor a?), matrices (why does matrix transformation for a function rule work?), modulus (what does it do, and how does nesting your function affect the graph? e.g. f(abs(g(x)) or f(g(abs(x)))?

The difference here is for this stuff that you can teach rules that people can (and often do) follow blindly, something that's not easily possible for vectors (particularly come proofs), complex numbers (where multiple methods yield the same answer, due to the nature of doing things in polar or Cartesian form) and integration (which we established there's no "magic formula" for).

- Probability in general, Markov chains, binomial distribution, that stuff. Surely this is trickier both conceptually and practically than Specialist concepts? E.g. for the probability of 2 heads out of 3 tosses, why do I multiply by only 3 and not by 3*2 for 2 'heads' in different order (idk what that even means).
- Why Pr(X=exact value) for a continuous distribution zero? The 'measured values' argument doesn't work... can we explain this by the fact that a binary search for any exact value will never terminate, so its 'impossible' to assign a probability to X=sqrt(2)?

And probability is claimed the most conceptually difficult concept in methods, rivaling the conceptual difficulty of specialist (and usually overpassing it). The difference is, for specialist, it's your whole exam - for methods, it's one question out of 5. Not to mention that, like specialist, due to the conceptual difficulty of probability, VCAA try not to make probability questions that trip you up incredibly. (usually the only tricky stuff they try is conditional probability, or combining PDFs with "integration by recognition" and making something "binomial" even if it wasn't originally so)

- calculation of approximate confidence intervals - you need to use approximation to relate p-hat to p, there's no way you can calculate the exact confidence interval unless you actually know p so we need to use the approximation relation. How does this even still work then? (excuse me if I'm talking rubbish, I tried to study the 2016 SD for tutoring, but I'm leaving it off till later now)

Because estimation - this is stuff that VCE doesn't cover that I'm REALLY pissed off about. Because you don't cover point estimation properly (which would be SUPER easy to include into methods. Like, insanely easy, it's literally just a max/min problem and a bit of conceptual stuff based on sampling distributions [which is already included in the study design])

Basically, as n goes to infinity, p-hat approaches p (that is, p-hat is unbiased), which means that for large enough n, you can use p-hat to approximate p in your confidence interval. It still works because the confidence interval is approximate by nature, so making another approximation is just like rounding off 1.491 to 1.49 and then again on to 1.5. You don't HAVE to take this approach, it's just EASIER to, which is a pretty fundamental part of statistics. Trying to find these tests is usually quite difficult, and we'll never have infinite n, so instead we make approximations to make the maths easier for us and anyone who needs to use it.

For these reasons, I'm inclined to view Methods as somewhat trickier than Specialist.

I can understand why you'd think this, but you've also based 3/4 of your arguments on one area of study in methods, and that area of study also generally has the same treatment from VCAA as specialist does because of that nature.

Besides, at the end of the day, it's all opinionated, so we can't really find a definitive answer as to which is more conceptually difficult. :P