Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?

[geminii]

Hey everyone,

Today I felt like I wanted to have some healthy discussions about what you think about eating meat and dairy. Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's ethical? Why do you do it? etc. Please be honest!
I'm a vegetarian so I'm going to be putting my points out there (against meat/dairy) as well so just remember I'm not attacking you! I just love debating a lot. But everything I say, I mean honestly.

Looking forward to hearing your points!!

[pi]

I'm someone who has been brought up in a culture of vegetarianism (and especially against eating beef), but in all honesty, I like the taste of meat LOL. Like everything, eating it in moderation is vital. Interested to see your ethical arguments against meat, I see nothing wrong in eating meat from an ethical stand-point (I mean, we're not the only species to eat another?). Sure, every now and again in the news we hear stories of "inhumane slaughtering" of animals, and I'm definitely against that, but I think largely in Australia it's all done humanely. To me, eating meat just fits in with where we are in the food chain.

On the note of dairy, I don't consume much dairy (haven't drank a glass of milk in over 10 years), but that's probably more-so because I have an acquired intolerance to it more than anything else.

[spectroscopy]

Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's ethical? Why do you do it? etc. Please be honest!

i had a vegan phase when i was fasting for religious purposes but tbh i got too bored of the foods and i dont like the taste of veggies lmao. until there is empirical evidence of (significant) health benefits of vegetarianism i wouldnt consider it, and even then i probably wouldnt do it.
the problem with alot of the studies is that the vegetarian groups that are examined in studies are usually more affluent, non-smokers, more health conscious overall etc. and dont partake in things that are already proven to be bad for your health (like excessive drinking/smoking).
 as such things like life expectancy for the vegetarian groups in most studies are higher than the non vegetarian ones because of reasons that generally could be chalked up to lifestyle factors. id wanna see a really long term study on vegetarians vs eating meat vs veganism over decades but with similiar demographics in each group

why do i eat meat? i like the taste, (pretty much) everything is good in moderation, its easy to find/eat/cook/buy. i have a few friends who are vegeterian or vegan for religious purposes and in general they understand its appeal and i even have a good friend who has just begun the process of going from vegan to eating meat. its been natural for a long time for humans to eat meat. before we developed agrarian societies we were mostly hunter-gatherers who would hunt animals and eat them so from an evolutionary and biological standpoint its pretty much the normal thing to do. lions eat zebras and bears eat salmon so its pretty natural all things considered for a species to eat another species.

like pi said above inhumane slaughter is really shit too and i wouldn't want that and alot of marketing studies would even show that consumers in general are happy to pay a price premium for ethically sourced products so i dont agree with the inhumane slaughter of animals like the shit you see on those viral facebook videos lol.
thats very much a western thing though (to care about that) because in alot of non western countries like in asia and africa their cultural approach to animals and meat is VERY different. they really dont see animals as having feelings or whatever. especially in the abattoirs in south east asia.

[Orson]

Reminds me of this:

[geminii]

If you haven't, check out vegan activist Gary Yourofsky; he's very passionate and you might find it quite interesting to read his, at times, extreme arguments.

Not a veggie/vegan, but I think the choice to be vegetarian on a purely ethical basis is somewhat naive considering the atrocities committed to the dairy industry don't ebb to far away from those of the meat industry. Personally I'm still sitting on the fence with this issue.

Yes I have checked him out! He was the one to convince me to want to go vegan. Obviously I'm living with my parents at this point and am not allowed to go vegan, so when I move out 100% I will.

Reminds me of this:

(Image removed from quote.)

Interesting point there! I never thought about it like that before.
The picture does say that 'Humans are the only animals that drink the milk of other animals'. Let me elaborate - the point of the quote is that drinking milk is not necessary. And neither are the other things that were listed - flying planes, making movies and using the phone. However those things do make life a lot easier!
But how does milk make your life easier?

I'm someone who has been brought up in a culture of vegetarianism (and especially against eating beef), but in all honesty, I like the taste of meat LOL.

This is one of the most common arguments I've come across - that people like the taste of meat. But does that make it ok? Like if a human tasted human meat, and they like it, they'd probably be put in jail. Same with someone who likes the taste of dog, cat, etc. (in this country at least). What makes it different?

I see nothing wrong in eating meat from an ethical stand-point (I mean, we're not the only species to eat another?). Sure, every now and again in the news we hear stories of "inhumane slaughtering" of animals, and I'm definitely against that, but I think largely in Australia it's all done humanely.

We are most certainly not the only species to eat another species. But our human bodies are physically not meant to eat meat. Take a look at the human body.
Our intestines are long, unlike hyenas/lions which need shorter intestines to get the decomposing flesh out of their bodies quicker.
We have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat eater - if we were meant to consume flesh, we would have stronger stomach acids to do the job.
We do not have claws, whereas meat eaters do. Even dogs have claws and they have no need to hunt anymore after domestication.
We have well developed salivary glands, which are used to digest fruits and grains.

But as you mentioned the ethical part of it, I feel obliged to tell you that animals throughout the world, even Australia, are not killed 'humanely'. They are stunned (which does not always work all the time) (a stun is a gunshot to the head) and then they are killed in horrible ways which I shall not post here because they are too gruesome and if you would like to be informed you can go to http://www.meat.org.
And besides, what is 'humane killing'? Is it that the animal is given a wonderful life and does not feel anything before they die?
Well here is a scenario that Gary Yourofsky used: say you met a nice man/woman at a bar. They and you have a great time, eating, drinking, etc. He/she has an awesome time and so do you. You have heaps of fun and then later in the day you meet again for dinner at your house. When he/she is not looking, you slip them a sleeping drug, and when they are unconscious you murder them brutally. Is that humane?

its been natural for a long time for humans to eat meat. before we developed agrarian societies we were mostly hunter-gatherers who would hunt animals and eat them so from an evolutionary and biological standpoint its pretty much the normal thing to do. lions eat zebras and bears eat salmon so its pretty natural all things considered for a species to eat another species.

As I mentioned above humans are not biologically meant to eat meat, you can see that from our anatomy and by comparing it to meat eaters and herbivores.
You say we were hunter gatherers before developing agrarian societies - but before that, before the whole Ice Age era, there was no need to eat meat. When the Ice Age came around, people were starving and resorted to meat. After the Ice Age, things should have gone back to normal...but they didn't, and people continue to eat meat + dairy today.
If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?

[Deshouka]

Just out of curiosity, are you religious by any chance?

[Señor]

If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?

Because humans are different to lions.

[keltingmeith]

As someone who knows very little about biology, please educate me - why is it that we compare to other animals? I mean, we have different physiology - so why is the fact that they don't drink milk an indication of how we should live? We don't drink milk purely for taste, it does have vitamins and minerals in it. It's not the only source, no, but it is a source.

Similarly, you keep mentioning that our physiology isn't designed for meat eaters, but last I looked our teeth and jaws are more akin to omnivores than herbivores?

[geminii]

Just out of curiosity, are you religious by any chance?

Yes I am, but my religion has nothing to do with whether I choose to eat meat. And neither is it the reason I want to share with people the consequences of eating meat + dairy.

Because humans are different to lions.

But meat eaters shouldn't be different to meat eaters.
Lions are like tigers. Tigers are like hyenas. Hyenas are like wolves. Wolves are like leopards. etc. They all have claws, sharp canines (and not only two sets of sharp teeth - their whole mouth is filled with sharp teeth whereas we only have four tiny canines that could never grip on raw flesh while hunting).
I wonder if there are any carnivores similar in physiology to humans?...

We don't drink milk purely for taste, it does have vitamins and minerals in it. It's not the only source, no, but it is a source.

Milk has calcium in it. That's why people think it's good for you. But read this:

But many scientific studies have shown an assortment of detrimental health effects directly linked to milk consumption. And the most surprising link is that not only do we barely absorb the calcium in cow’s milk (especially if pasteurized), but to make matters worse, it actually increases calcium loss from the bones. What an irony this is!

Here’s how it happens. Like all animal protein, milk acidifies the body pH which in turn triggers a biological correction. You see, calcium is an excellent acid neutralizer and the biggest storage of calcium in the body is – you guessed it… in the bones. So the very same calcium that our bones need to stay strong is utilized to neutralize the acidifying effect of milk. Once calcium is pulled out of the bones, it leaves the body via the urine, so that the surprising net result after this is an actual calcium deficit.

Knowing this, you’ll understand why statistics show that countries with the lowest consumption of dairy products also have the lowest fracture incidence in their population (there’s more on this later).

But the sad truth is that most mainstream health practitioners ignore these proven facts.

Similarly, you keep mentioning that our physiology isn't designed for meat eaters, but last I looked our teeth and jaws are more akin to omnivores than herbivores?

We have four canines and the rest of our teeth are flat, like cows, deer, etc. - animals that chew their food. Carnivorous animals like lions, tigers, even domesticated animals like dogs and cats that have no need to have sharp teeth to hunt for food or eat raw meat anymore, still have sharp teeth. And our four canines are tiny!

[geminii]

Also, another point about milk - 75% of the world is intolerant to milk.
I asked my biology teacher about this. She said that during the early stages of humanity, when people had migrated out of Africa to other parts of the world, people from Europe/surrounding areas mutated - they developed the ability to continue to produce the enzyme that digests milk in your body. Typically you stop producing this enzyme as a young child because your body has no need for milk in childhood/adulthood after drinking breastmilk in infancy.
So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes.
Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural!

[Señor]

If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?

You are manipulating the information. Yes it is true that lion who eats a zebra raw gets stronger. Yes it is true when we eat a chicken raw we get poisoning. However you have not informed the rest of us that not all animals can eat raw meat with contracting a poisoning. You have also forgotten to inform us that humans can eat raw meat, for example a steak tartare. 

[geminii]

You are manipulating the information. Yes it is true that lion who eats a zebra raw gets stronger. Yes it is true when we eat a chicken raw we get poisoning. However you have not informed the rest of us that not all animals can eat raw meat with contracting a poisoning.

Source? I tried to find some facts/stats on this but couldn't.

You have also forgotten to inform us that humans can eat raw meat, for example a steak tartare. 

That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.

[Señor]

That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.

Your arguments are based around the idea that humans arent meant to eat meat. It is irrelevant that we werent made for eating meat. Why? Because humans do not care whether or not they were made to do things.

Humans were not made for space exploration and yet the world watched with anticipation as we landed on the moon. Was there a danger? Yeah there was a hell of a danger to leave earth. Just as there is in eating meat.

We humans adapt to make our lives better. You do not see humans dying from eating meat bought from coles or safeway, so why should they stop? Is it healthier? I dont know. I work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.

Kudos to you that you promote a healthy lifestyle. I dont have a biology degree and you are 16 i guess. Im 18 myself and i respect your views. However all i know is that when i work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.


By the way the source to animals getting sick eating meat is eating parasites. Just remember that the internet out there is subjective most of the time. Keep an open mind and read the arguments of people against vegetarians.

[pi]

So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes.
Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural!

I think if we start saying things are "unnatural" just because they have "mutated genes", we're going to down a very troubling road.

Who's not to say that 25% have evolved to drink milk?

That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.

We are most certainly not the only species to eat another species. But our human bodies are physically not meant to eat meat. Take a look at the human body.
Our intestines are long, unlike hyenas/lions which need shorter intestines to get the decomposing flesh out of their bodies quicker.
We have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat eater - if we were meant to consume flesh, we would have stronger stomach acids to do the job.
We do not have claws, whereas meat eaters do. Even dogs have claws and they have no need to hunt anymore after domestication.
We have well developed salivary glands, which are used to digest fruits and grains.

We also eat plenty of fish raw, just look at any Asian cuisine.

But I think this is a moot point anyway. Let's look at the spectrum of animals. Vultures can eat rotting flesh. Lions can eat flesh. We can eat cooked flesh. We've all involved differently. Our stomach's are weaker because if we can cook meat, we don't need to so rigorously process it to gain the nutrients. Again, evolution explains this very simply to me.

But as you mentioned the ethical part of it, I feel obliged to tell you that animals throughout the world, even Australia, are not killed 'humanely'. They are stunned (which does not always work all the time) (a stun is a gunshot to the head) and then they are killed in horrible ways which I shall not post here because they are too gruesome and if you would like to be informed you can go to http://www.meat.org.
And besides, what is 'humane killing'? Is it that the animal is given a wonderful life and does not feel anything before they die?
Well here is a scenario that Gary Yourofsky used: say you met a nice man/woman at a bar. They and you have a great time, eating, drinking, etc. He/she has an awesome time and so do you. You have heaps of fun and then later in the day you meet again for dinner at your house. When he/she is not looking, you slip them a sleeping drug, and when they are unconscious you murder them brutally. Is that humane?

Thanks for "obliging" me lol. The RSPCA definition of humanely killing is "an animal must be either killed instantly or rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes.". I'm not super learned on how animals are slaughtered but I believe that's the goal in most slaughterhouses (for a lack of a better word), but of course practices have room to improve.

I think the analogy you have given is markedly different and not a fair analogy at all. Your pal Yourofsky, who has been banned from entering several countries, also once said that users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer. He's a lunatic and I hope you have other people to read and learn from.

[spectroscopy]

Source? I tried to find some facts/stats on this but couldn't.

you ask him for sources but you dont provide any yourself lol

i think at the end of the day, taking every fact in here related to the health side of things as true, the big thing for meat eaters is the fact they dont really care about anecdotal facts and health arguments if the upside outcomes aren't visible

the longest living people have eaten meat, there is no empirical evidence of vegetarians having better health outcomes than meat eaters, and most divergences in occurences of major illnesses between vegetarians and meat eaters are either statistically insignificant or more likely to be representative of the demographic groups differences rather than the diet differences.
as long as vegetarians arent consistently living decades longer and having way better health outcomes than meat eaters, most people who grew up enjoying steaks and chicken etc. will not care if "we arent meant to eat it".

even if for arguments sake we assume vegetarians are (objectively) marginally healthier, this improved state isnt that tangible or noticeable. With smoking for instance, the negative effects are very obvious, risks for horrible illnesses are increased by ridiculous amounts and most people know someone whose been affected by smoking caused illness. But if that hasnt happened with meating, ie; if meat eating isn't so unhealthy that we can tell a difference, most people wont care.
i dont give a fuck if my body wasnt "meant to drink milk", if im not lactose intolerant and it hasnt harmed me or my family in anyway that i can tell, im still gonna put milk in my weetbix LMAO

im not trying to talk down veganism or vegetarianism though, people can do whatever they want. if you feel better eatng that way, whether its physiological or psychological, you should do what works for you. some people just prefer to eat vegeterian or vegan and thats cool, but for me personally and most people i know, there isnt enough evidence of the significant health benefits for us to stop eating chicken or beef or fish or any meat.