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Author Topic: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi  (Read 52237 times)

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n.a

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2016, 02:49:01 pm »
+1
Do you think there will still be prospects for doctors in the future, in light of the technological advancements of today that threaten to make humans redundant?

That is to say, is it useless for me to study medicine if I'm going to be replaced by a robot in the near, not so distant future?
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2016, 03:53:04 pm »
+6
Do you think there will still be prospects for doctors in the future, in light of the technological advancements of today that threaten to make humans redundant?

That is to say, is it useless for me to study medicine if I'm going to be replaced by a robot in the near, not so distant future?

Great question. I'm going to ramble a bit, so bear with me.

I think there's always going to be room for the human doctor. I'm a big believer of the patient-doctor relationship - it's a unique relationship that is therapeutic in and of itself. There's always going to be a role for the ritual that takes place in a doctor's clinic: the first impressions, the history, the physical examination, the explanation, the management. This ritual relies on several things that a robot can't do:
1. A human-to-human understanding and the human touch (highly recommend this short TED talk by Stanford physician Abraham Verghese);
2. The ability to integrate all aspects of a patient to the betterment of the their health;
3. The ability to see each patient as unique.

I went to a Neurosciences Symposium recently, and there was a fascinating talk about neurorehabilitation in patients who have had a stroke ('heart attack' of the brain). The speaker described these robots they have introduced to their neurorehab ward that seek out patients to help them perform exercises, just like a physio would, but for a fraction of the cost. But why did they still employ the same number of physios? The human-to-human understanding and the human touch. These factors in themselves are inherently therapeutic, as has been well documented in medical literature, and can't be replaced so easily. I was later told by a prominent neurosurgeon over lunch that in Japan, they've found introducing robotic dogs (that look like real dogs) have had some benefit in Aged Care centers. But whether we could have a robot 'looking like a doctor/physio/nurse' to replace their role... that sounds unlikely to me. 

Having said that, what role do robots have in medicine? There are certainly specialties that are at more risk of being made redundant. For example, there is a lot of work being done to have computers interpret x-rays, CTs, MRIs, and other imaging modalities through use of complex algorithms and pattern recognition, which could potentially replace Radiologists. This is worrying for them, especially with the breakthroughs in technology that can actually learn and improve (eg. the computer that plays Go and beat the world champ). However, these breakthroughs have limitations. A good case in point is the interpretation of electocardiograms (ECGs/EKGs). The machines that do the ECG often generate its own interpretation, and often it picks up all these subtleties, but the difference is: it doesn't have access to the patient to correlate some squiggly lines to the patient's clinical presentation. Thus, it often misses the bigger picture. Human doctors though, they have the benefit of having both the patient and the investigation in front of them. This is something robots just cannot do so well.

My final thought on this comes back to a question many AN'ers may be dwelling upon as we approach med interview season: what does it really mean to be a 'doctor'? Whilst many of us may scoff at the ridiculousness of that question, and assume the answer is something about treating patients, saving lives, or something along those glamorous lines, I think those responses miss the mark a bit. Doctor is said to derive from the Latin "docēre", which actually means "to teach". It doesn't mean "to heal", or "to cure", or "to save"; it means "to teach". And that's the third thing that I don't think robots can do so well. Do patients just want a diagnosis and a drug? No, what they want is to understand what's going on with their body, they want to be taught these things. And each patient is unique in that regard, they've all got different levels of education, they've all got different expectations, they've all got different concerns, they're all unique. It's the doctor's role to adapt to that uniqueness. As the Father of Modern Medicine Hippocrates once said (translated), "It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know what sort of disease a person has". Two-and-a-half thousand years on, that quote still has a lot of relevance to medicine.

 

I think medicine today is still similar to that depicted by Luke Fildes in his 1891 painting The Doctor, as shown above on the left. Here we have a doctor looking over a child, the child has TB and is inevitably going to pass away (treatment for this condition was not yet discovered!), but we can see clearly the patient has the doctor's undivided attention, and the doctor is thinking deeply about what to do next. The doctor, the patient, and the patient's family probably all know what is going to happen, but there's still a silent and powerful understanding between everyone present that everything that can be done is being done. This is demonstrated again in the picture on the right, which shows Sir William Osler, one of his four famous photographs at the bedside, in "contemplation". A robot can't do these things. There's just no connection it can make that could be as powerful and meaningful as the one between the doctor and the patient. Many would argue that giving these doctors a desk with a computer and too much paperwork would be a better representation of medicine today, and I'd agree, but the essence of Fildes' work and Osler's approach are still very much relevant and still forms the backbone of what medicine is all about, and what it should be all about.

So I think we can safely say that something like this is probably out of the question :P

« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:57:50 pm by pi »

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2016, 04:34:42 pm »
+1
Great question. I'm going to ramble a bit, so bear with me.

I think there's always going to be room for the human doctor. I'm a big believer of the patient-doctor relationship - it's a unique relationship that is therapeutic in and of itself. There's always going to be a role for the ritual that takes place in a doctor's clinic: the first impressions, the history, the physical examination, the explanation, the management. This ritual relies on several things that a robot can't do:
1. A human-to-human understanding and the human touch (highly recommend this short TED talk by Stanford physician Abraham Verghese);
2. The ability to integrate all aspects of a patient to the betterment of the their health;
3. The ability to see each patient as unique.

I went to a Neurosciences Symposium recently, and there was a fascinating talk about neurorehabilitation in patients who have had a stroke ('heart attack' of the brain). The speaker described these robots they have introduced to their neurorehab ward that seek out patients to help them perform exercises, just like a physio would, but for a fraction of the cost. But why did they still employ the same number of physios? The human-to-human understanding and the human touch. These factors in themselves are inherently therapeutic, as has been well documented in medical literature, and can't be replaced so easily. I was later told by a prominent neurosurgeon over lunch that in Japan, they've found introducing robotic dogs (that look like real dogs) have had some benefit in Aged Care centers. But whether we could have a robot 'looking like a doctor/physio/nurse' to replace their role... that sounds unlikely to me. 

Having said that, what role do robots have in medicine? There are certainly specialties that are at more risk of being made redundant. For example, there is a lot of work being done to have computers interpret x-rays, CTs, MRIs, and other imaging modalities through use of complex algorithms and pattern recognition, which could potentially replace Radiologists. This is worrying for them, especially with the breakthroughs in technology that can actually learn and improve (eg. the computer that plays Go and beat the world champ). However, these breakthroughs have limitations. A good case in point is the interpretation of electocardiograms (ECGs/EKGs). The machines that do the ECG often generate its own interpretation, and often it picks up all these subtleties, but the difference is: it doesn't have access to the patient to correlate some squiggly lines to the patient's clinical presentation. Thus, it often misses the bigger picture. Human doctors though, they have the benefit of having both the patient and the investigation in front of them. This is something robots just cannot do so well.

My final thought on this comes back to a question many AN'ers may be dwelling upon as we approach med interview season: what does it really mean to be a 'doctor'? Whilst many of us may scoff at the ridiculousness of that question, and assume the answer is something about treating patients, saving lives, or something along those glamorous lines, I think those responses miss the mark a bit. Doctor is said to derive from the Latin "docēre", which actually means "to teach". It doesn't mean "to heal", or "to cure", or "to save"; it means "to teach". And that's the third thing that I don't think robots can do so well. Do patients just want a diagnosis and a drug? No, what they want is to understand what's going on with their body, they want to be taught these things. And each patient is unique in that regard, they've all got different levels of education, they've all got different expectations, they've all got different concerns, they're all unique. It's the doctor's role to adapt to that uniqueness. As the Father of Modern Medicine Hippocrates once said (translated), "It is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than to know what sort of disease a person has". Two-and-a-half thousand years on, that quote still has a lot of relevance to medicine.

 

I think medicine today is still similar to that depicted by Luke Fildes in his 1891 painting The Doctor, as shown above on the left. Here we have a doctor looking over a child, the child has TB and is inevitably going to pass away (treatment for this condition was not yet discovered!), but we can see clearly the patient has the doctor's undivided attention, and the doctor is thinking deeply about what to do next. The doctor, the patient, and the patient's family probably all know what is going to happen, but there's still a silent and powerful understanding between everyone present that everything that can be done is being done. This is demonstrated again in the picture on the right, which shows Sir William Osler, one of his four famous photographs at the bedside, in "contemplation". A robot can't do these things. There's just no connection it can make that could be as powerful and meaningful as the one between the doctor and the patient. Many would argue that giving these doctors a desk with a computer and too much paperwork would be a better representation of medicine today, and I'd agree, but the essence of Fildes' work and Osler's approach are still very much relevant and still forms the backbone of what medicine is all about, and what it should be all about.

So I think we can safely say that something like this is probably out of the question :P


Wow, that's a really brilliant response, thank you so much for that! I'm actually in complete agreement with what you said, and now I finally have the words to formulate and back up my arguments against the naysayers.
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2016, 04:46:25 pm »
0
Hey pi.... what's your favourite quote from a movie and why?
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2016, 04:55:02 pm »
+2
Wow, that's a really brilliant response, thank you so much for that! I'm actually in complete agreement with what you said, and now I finally have the words to formulate and back up my arguments against the naysayers.

Haha thanks to you for the question! It was very thought-provoking :)

Hey pi.... what's your favourite quote from a movie and why?

I actually have an incredibly poor memory when it comes to songs (lyrics, who sang what, album names, etc.) and movies (quotes, actors, directors, etc.). Like, it's not even funny how I can't remember those details.

I could never go past something from my fav movie of all time Jurassic Park. This is a classic (missing lines in between, but captures the essence):

« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:00:35 pm by pi »

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2016, 05:25:38 pm »
0

I actually have an incredibly poor memory when it comes to songs (lyrics, who sang what, album names, etc.) and movies (quotes, actors, directors, etc.). Like, it's not even funny how I can't remember those details.


Yoo I have the exact same problem - I've literally listened to songs or watched an english text over and over and not been able to absorb anything from it - do you find that you have the same problem when it comes down to scientific language (names of stuff?) I.e diseases etc, or do you learn about this stuff in depth that your brain is able to remember what they are?

Btw your "guide to racking respect" seems to be awfully accurate. damn.
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2016, 05:35:51 pm »
0
do you find that you have the same problem when it comes down to scientific language (names of stuff?) I.e diseases etc, or do you learn about this stuff in depth that your brain is able to remember what they are?

Not at all, I tend to have a 'normal' memory when it comes to that stuff. Not sure why it happens, maybe I subconsciously don't deem songs or movies worth remembering because I can easily revisit them, not sure! Luckily I have no such problems with studying or remembering patients hahaha

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2016, 07:08:10 pm »
+1
In alternate universe:

Dr Pi Congratulations, we have succesfully removed your right leg!
Mr Patient Man ...you mean left leg?


Okay, another question. How did you find the atmosphere at MHS? Being selective, I assume there would have been an absolute tonne of high-achievers. Did this make for a collaborative atmosphere? Was there too much pressure put on? How did it influence you as a person? Blahblahsdohmsdhpshd
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2016, 07:42:59 pm »
+3
Okay, another question. How did you find the atmosphere at MHS? Being selective, I assume there would have been an absolute tonne of high-achievers. Did this make for a collaborative atmosphere? Was there too much pressure put on? How did it influence you as a person? Blahblahsdohmsdhpshd

I actually really enjoyed the atmosphere in MHS. I think the general perception is "a bunch of nerds with glasses from Chinese/Indian backgrounds who just spend all day studying and aren't able to stay in the light for too long", but that's really far far from the truth.

The reality is... we did next to nothing in class. Many of us worked hard when we got home (some had crazy tiger parents lol), so school was really a bit of freedom to muck around and have some fun. Safe to say, the vast majority of my memories from school aren't related to studying at all, they're to do with playing CS 1.6 behind the teacher's back, having ridiculous debates in maths (not 'maths debates' -_-), playing hilarious pranks on each other, those times when my teacher threw textbooks out the window, being late to class to play cricket, etc etc. I had a really fun time during class, which is something that doesn't seem to happen as much in other schools if AN's posts are a good representation of the state; that saddens me. Year 12 should be the best year of you schooling, even if you don't go to the socials and the formals and the 18ths and all of that, you should still be able to enjoy the year for what it was, I was lucky to be able to do that with ease.

The MHS atmosphere was largely collaborative. If you needed help, you could ask any of a number of people and they'd help you out. There were really a lot of comradery and 'brotherly' feels to the cohort. We had 300+ students in a year and a huge campus, so in the off chance that someone was being a bit of a douche to you, it was actually quite easy to just avoid them and move on with school. Having said that, I didn't encounter much bullying or anything like that. Plenty of casual racism, which was almost ingrained into the culture of the school, but nothing said with malice. Not many fights either, the closest I saw to a fight were a couple of kids getting a bit touchy over who owned this copy MathsQuest in the library, it was more hilarious than physical.

As for how it influenced me as a person, that's a tough question. I think it taught me a bit of humility, seeing so many people who are at your academic level or better is certainly humbling in many regards. It taught me to become a more confident person, I was incredibly shy throughout my childhood, wouldn't at all be keen to even ask a shop assistant where something was. After a good dose of MHS debating for four years I improved drastically in that regard, it's funny what going out of your comfort zone can do. MHS also taught me something really important that I only really began to accept after I left, that being something I've echoed in this thread already: 'more than just marks'. It's easy, scarily easy, to get too involved in study and marks and the whole shebang of VCE, but life's really too short to worry about it too much. Getting a B+ isn't the end of the world or your life or your VCE or your day. To take a more micro view of the phrase 'more than just marks', there's something you can take out of every disappointment, and it's important to focus on those things instead. Sure, you got a 'bad' mark, but what did you learn from it? The marks are important, but there's much more to every mark, and what's 'more' is often what's most important.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:48:26 pm by pi »

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2016, 08:15:31 pm »
+1
Pi's really long response

That's a wonderful answer, thank you. The only (excluding ATAR Notes) interaction I've had with anyone from MHS is my grandfather who attended in the '60s (obvsly different), so it's nice to see some perspective. In regards to humility concerning so many other focused people, did you seem to experience this again when you started your med degree, where (I assume) it'd be even more academically inclined?
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2016, 08:26:38 pm »
+1
That's a wonderful answer, thank you. The only (excluding ATAR Notes) interaction I've had with anyone from MHS is my grandfather who attended in the '60s (obvsly different), so it's nice to see some perspective.

Haha that's so cool! MHS was quite different back then ;)

In regards to humility concerning so many other focused people, did you seem to experience this again when you started your med degree, where (I assume) it'd be even more academically inclined?

Absolutely. As I've said previously, I entered the course knowing I was in the bottom 25%, so definitely was in awe of the VCE stardom around me haha. Still in awe of many people now, albeit not for the VCE achievements :)

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2016, 09:36:15 pm »
+1
I'll just ask one more question then give you a break :P

Did you find that there was generally any relationship between performance in VCE and performance in med? I hope to study med at Monash, and will be using ( many ) SEAS categories/Monash Guarantee to try and get in, and was wondering if such people - who may have had lower achieved ATARs - performed any differently? Ideally not, given the purpose of SEAS is to make a level playing field, but I wouldn't know how it works out realistically.
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2016, 09:59:38 pm »
+1
Bio medicine then Med at Melbourne vs Medicine at Monash.

Thoughts, assuming Atar and UMAT permitting :)

Edit: Read previous post on Monash vs Melb, but what are your thoughts on the different pathways to become a doctor :)
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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2016, 10:41:17 pm »
+1
I'll just ask one more question then give you a break :P

Did you find that there was generally any relationship between performance in VCE and performance in med? I hope to study med at Monash, and will be using ( many ) SEAS categories/Monash Guarantee to try and get in, and was wondering if such people - who may have had lower achieved ATARs - performed any differently? Ideally not, given the purpose of SEAS is to make a level playing field, but I wouldn't know how it works out realistically.

Keep the questions coming, at least yours' aren't about HighTide haha

I think there's a correlation, but it's not a strong one because there are lots of exceptions. There are many students in the top quartile who didn't did 99+ ATARs and all that jazz, even more if you consider those that didn't get 99.5+. At the end of the day, uni is a clean slate, and the methods people used to study in highschool often fall apart in uni. We don't have practice exams, we don't have textbooks with questions, we just have... lots to remember. And it can be hard to adjust to that even if you were a VCE superstar. It's actually quite hard to predict who adapts well and who doesn't if you use ATAR alone.

I vividly remember being reminded, albeit perhaps jokingly, that I had the lowest ATAR in my lecture row. I did better than many of those guys. You can too :)

Bio medicine then Med at Melbourne vs Medicine at Monash.

Thoughts, assuming Atar and UMAT permitting :)

Edit: Read previous post on Monash vs Melb, but what are your thoughts on the different pathways to become a doctor :)

Probably not best for me to say how they turn out as doctors given I'm not yet there myself! But from what I've heard from senior clinicians, there's not a huge difference between graduates as interns. I've heard from numerous consultants at Monash, Deakin and UoM clinical schools that UoM MDs are a little weak on practical skills because they have one semester less clinical years, but due to the nature of the job, all interns catch up pretty quickly. It's too early to say if there are any differences when it comes to registrar or consultant level, but I don't suspect there would be any.

Looking at which pathway *should* be better. Graduate pathway should be better because one should know more and one should be more mature. The reasons it's practically not is that Biomed and MD1 aren't as in-sync as they could be, and perhaps the Biomed cohort is inherently academically weaker (vast majority would have gone Monash if they got in), so it really balances out graduates and undergraduates. I do like the idea of Biomed/MD in theory, I think it has a lot of potential to really build some good fundamentals, but in practice it just doesn't happen as it should. That's just my impression having taught a group of MD2s (and numerous groups of MBBS IIIs from Monash) weekly for some time now.

If I somehow had all of that knowledge as someone who also got an offer to Monash and guaranteed an offer to UoM, I'd still take Monash just because it's shorter. Given the graduates are about the same, length of the degree would be enough of a factor to sway me to Monash.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 10:45:08 pm by pi »

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Re: [Ask Me Anything] #5: pi
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2016, 11:02:34 pm »
0
Keep the questions coming, at least yours' aren't about HighTide haha

When swimming at the beach, do you prefer swimming during low tide, or high tide?

--

Thanks for the answer, it is good to hear :)

--

Fantastic, I'll ask some more, I'm quite enjoying this.

What's the best place to eat at the Clayton Campus?

What's the funniest joke you know? (HighTide doesn't count ayyyyyyyyyyyy)

Do you think your scary ATAR Notes/online persona differs from your real life persona?

Finally, briefly, what are you researching in your Bachelor of Medical Science?


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