Relationship between money and academic results

[elysepopplewell]

It's a NSW example, but the Sydney Morning Herald posted an article about some of the school's in NSW's lowest 25% (socioeconomically and academically) had students that achieved ATAR results that paralleled those of our highest 25% ranking schools. The article sites Gina Elton, the dux of her low SES school in 2016, living on a farm, had to take a 1.5 hour bus each way to school, one of eight children, and her trek to medicine at Uni. I suppose it's a feel good story.

I think something that is crucial to the debate is the academic culture of schools. Usually, high income from parents (which usually correlates with high studies themselves) cultivates a culture of academia being perhaps not even just the norm - but expected/admired. When you have a community of like-minded students, the academic culture makes a huge difference. I think that in a high socio-economic school where teachers are spending less time disciplining students, trying to prove to them their studies are important/worthwhile, as well as spending less time assisting students overcoming motivational barriers when their home-life isn't exactly geared towards academia, the results are higher. I had a few exceptional teachers, but I largely think that my teachers at my mid-to-low SES school spent more time than they'd like to discipling distracting behaviour, discipling uniform, trying to convince students that studying will be to their own benefit, and my most dedicated teachers really tried to do all in their power from a school perspective to make time in school super effective, because time at home for a lot of students wouldn't be very academically-encouraging.

My sister is moving from the High School I went to, to a Grammar school, for her senior studies. She'll do the IB, not HSC. From the few short experiences she's had at the school so far, she can't believe how many times a day they say "scholarly." Even though the school is only about 20 minutes from my own, the school fees are 5x the amount they were at my school, and they have a smaller cohort than my school, and 40+ ATARs over 90 each year. My school had 5 ATARs over 90 in a cohort of about 120. The culture is different at the Grammar school...being studious is expected and admired.

[Calebark]

i think the teachers were more better and approachable. In government schools, teachers don't help if they are busy, but in (most) private schools , they are 'forced' to help since they know the students pay a lot of money to come everyday. That school also had help-time till 8:30pm for senior students where students could work and there were roaming teachers every single day.

I can't comment on this exactly, but this relates. Again, in all three of my government schools, there have been a lot of teachers that just don't give a damn, or one reason or other. Hell, even a few weeks ago, I e-mailed my Maths teacher to send me the PowerPoints as I won't be able to make it to school for other reasons, and she flat out said no, and that I have to get them myself.

Anyway, but when you do get a teacher that cares, it's extremely inspirational. Not just an adequate teacher, or even a good one, but a blood fantastic one. Case in point, when my Physics teacher arrived at our school, and many students (including myself) not only put in more effort into all of their studies, but starting enjoying school. Even the average Physics score was raised an absolute tonne.

I think it's also worth noting what a lack of money can do for academic results.

There's been a lot of discussion about wealthier families producing higher achieving students, but I think another piece of the puzzle is that it can be difficult for financially worse off students to focus as much. Where do you study at home if you don't have a study desk, your dining table is next to the constantly blaring TV, and you wouldn't dream of asking your parents to fork out for a suitable desk/study space? How do you devote yourself to your studies when your focus is split between homework and actual part-time work so you can contribute financially to the household?

This is distinct from things like 'how much does the family value education' (at least a little bit). I agree with the above that some people just don't care about it and don't foster than care in their kids, but there's disadvantaged attached to to the practicalities of low disposable income.

The answer to my above rhetorical question - where do you study - is "at the public library!" Which is a suitable answer, but just that extra bit more effort that student has to go through. If they had a study desk, or even a devoted study in the family home, that process would be unnecessary. Money can't buy attitude, but it can buy convenience, and inherently involves financial security - where a lack of money can negatively impact in small ways that end up adding up.

Not exactly pertinent to the discussion, but I study at the library myself, and it's extraordinarily loud. Is this common in libraries? I always thought it was a bastion of silence.

[HasibA]

Nothing of the sort here in SA.
Schools names are not even mentioned in moderation and pieces of work are completely anonymous.

hmm fair enough no idea have SACE works but im pretty sure in vce , the school you go to (mainly its cohort) definitely affects your final study scores and therefore your atar

[Swagadaktal]

Anyway, but when you do get a teacher that cares, it's extremely inspirational. Not just an adequate teacher, or even a good one, but a blood fantastic one. Case in point, when my Physics teacher arrived at our school, and many students (including myself) not only put in more effort into all of their studies, but starting enjoying school. Even the average Physics score was raised an absolute tonne.

It's always the physics teachers - not sure what they study in their course, but I had a brilliant physics teacher who completely inspired me too.

And re: scaling (strong vs weak cohort) - no one is at an advantage here. Don't pin a study score on the cohort - if you're in top 3 ranks your sac marks shouldn't be affected by the cohort. If you get an A+ on the exam and ur pals above you get B+ on the exam, it becomes a question of how - how did you not manage to overtake them in sac marks.

But yeah this should have absolutely 0% weighting (the differences might be subtle, but its not the difference between a 40 and a 45)

[HasibA]

It's always the physics teachers - not sure what they study in their course, but I had a brilliant physics teacher who completely inspired me too.

And re: scaling (strong vs weak cohort) - no one is at an advantage here. Don't pin a study score on the cohort - if you're in top 3 ranks your sac marks shouldn't be affected by the cohort. If you get an A+ on the exam and ur pals above you get B+ on the exam, it becomes a question of how - how did you not manage to overtake them in sac marks.

But yeah this should have absolutely 0% weighting (the differences might be subtle, but its not the difference between a 40 and a 45)

i agree, but my friend and the english department at their school had consistent arguments, and im sure they were unfairly rankede

even so at my school, im pretty sure i was scaled in my own cohort as i got an A+ on my exam but was ranked near last (my teacher and i had consistent arguments)
hahaha its more than simply how u managed to overtake ya mates, there's a lot of dodgy teachers and favouritism at hand ahah

[Swagadaktal]

i agree, but my friend and the english department at their school had consistent arguments, and im sure they were unfairly rankede

even so at my school, im pretty sure i was scaled in my own cohort as i got an A+ on my exam but was ranked near last (my teacher and i had consistent arguments)
hahaha its more than simply how u managed to overtake ya mates, there's a lot of dodgy teachers and favouritism at hand ahah

Ah yeah I agree completely there. English is extremely subjective, and unless you're indisputably solid, you can fall victim to the favouritism and harshness (I defs did). So yeah that would suck

[brenden]

I can't comment on this exactly, but this relates. Again, in all three of my government schools, there have been a lot of teachers that just don't give a damn, or one reason or other. Hell, even a few weeks ago, I e-mailed my Maths teacher to send me the PowerPoints as I won't be able to make it to school for other reasons, and she flat out said no, and that I have to get them myself.

Anyway, but when you do get a teacher that cares, it's extremely inspirational. Not just an adequate teacher, or even a good one, but a blood fantastic one. Case in point, when my Physics teacher arrived at our school, and many students (including myself) not only put in more effort into all of their studies, but starting enjoying school. Even the average Physics score was raised an absolute tonne.

Not exactly pertinent to the discussion, but I study at the library myself, and it's extraordinarily loud. Is this common in libraries? I always thought it was a bastion of silence.

Libraries are shit, in my experience. Haha. Never found a quiet one.

[Son of Thatcher]

Ah yeah I agree completely there. English is extremely subjective, and unless you're indisputably solid, you can fall victim to the favouritism and harshness (I defs did). So yeah that would suck

My English teacher and I also used to argue a lot, especially about the political connotations embedded in those feminist speeches; the case with many of my teachers actually . It does expose you somewhat but the way I got around it was to treat it all like a big laugh and not take it too seriously. But you're right, English can be extremely subjective an sometimes, you just got to give the markers and your teachers what they're looking for.

Libraries are shit, in my experience. Haha. Never found a quiet one.

Really? My local library is silent like a tomb.

[rinagee12]

Money is definitely an advantage if put to good use (I would have loved to attend a good school with competitive students who could drive up my marks, and to not have completed my HSC on the floor). But in many ways (and what my experience of going to a disadvantaged school has shown), the relationship between the student, their teachers/supporters and academic results is more important than the relationship between money and academic results.

[RuiAce]

Tbh. I'm more interested in a correlation coefficient between these two factors. A more quantitative result.

What constitutes "better" academic results? A better ATAR?

[Swagadaktal]

Tbh. I'm more interested in a correlation coefficient between these two factors. A more quantitative result.

What constitutes "better" academic results? A better ATAR?

That's a good question: I'd say getting into your first preference. I've grown out of the naive bubble of believing that those who study med/law/engineering are set up for a better life coz it's completely false. It's like any other course.

So I guess % of students who get into their first preference is what I'd judge it on.

[vox nihili]

Sorry I haven't been around to jump into this discussion especially given Aaron and I kicked it off :p

A quick google of "predictors of academic achievement/results" will bring up a lot of research on this area.

A lot of interesting contributions here, but I think what's really critical in this discussion is that we have reasonably good tools to quantify the impact that these factors have on education.
Much of what is said about education in the media is pretty inaccurate and a lot of the discussions that come from it are also fairly poor. It's because we have such an emotional connexion to our school. It occupies a really odd part of our life and so it makes it really difficult to be objective about it. Also, we hear a lot about other schools and talk a lot about other schools, without actually experiencing them ourselves.

In my own experience, I've worked in a few different schools and was really struck by how naive I was about the private school system. I was genuinely shocked when I first started working in it, mainly because I was surprised by how clueless I was.

[Orb]

That's a good question: I'd say getting into your first preference. I've grown out of the naive bubble of believing that those who study med/law/engineering are set up for a better life coz it's completely false. It's like any other course.

So I guess % of students who get into their first preference is what I'd judge it on.

At the same time, people change their first preferences based on their own 'prediction' of their ATAR.

Eg. If i was predicting an ATAR of 70, got like 55 on the UMAT but I really, REALLY wanted to get into medicine, any reasonable person would tell me 'you have no chance'. I probably wouldn't leave Monash Med as my first preference.

I agree it's very hard to quantitatively say how well people go by any measure and it is a fairly decent measure regardless

[Aaron]

In my own experience, I've worked in a few different schools and was really struck by how naive I was about the private school system. I was genuinely shocked when I first started working in it, mainly because I was surprised by how clueless I was.

In what way? I'm agreeing with you by the way - I had my own pre-conceived ideas about the private system until I went into one during my placement. Safe to say these ideas were debunked very quickly. Although I have to say I think how we react to things such as this depends on the individual as well - I've heard plenty of stories within the MTeach cohort of bad private school experiences too. If you already have a perception in your head about a particular school, it's very hard to change that unless you physically go into that school and challenge these ideas (which is obviously very difficult to do).

Tools such as MySchool provide decent insight into the last 5-6 years of a school's development and change through SES, NAPLAN results, year 12 completion % and so on. Put a fair few of these statistics together, then I think you have a decent indicator. One statistic alone I don't think is the best way to measure things. I personally use these (not just one year, I use the entire 5-6 years as a snapshot) before I go out on placement so I have a rough idea of what to expect (although you can't judge a school's culture unless you've physically experienced it). Also provides figures re: how much funding each school gets (sometimes it's nice to have an understanding in this area ).

[vox nihili]

In what way? I'm agreeing with you by the way - I had my own pre-conceived ideas about the private system until I went into one during my placement. Safe to say these ideas were debunked very quickly. Although I have to say I think how we react to things such as this depends on the individual as well - I've heard plenty of stories within the MTeach cohort of bad private school experiences too. If you already have a perception in your head about a particular school, it's very hard to change that unless you physically go into that school and challenge these ideas (which is obviously very difficult to do).

Tools such as MySchool provide decent insight into the last 5-6 years of a school's development and change through SES, NAPLAN results, year 12 completion % and so on. Put a fair few of these statistics together, then I think you have a decent indicator. One statistic alone I don't think is the best way to measure things. I personally use these (not just one year, I use the entire 5-6 years as a snapshot) before I go out on placement so I have a rough idea of what to expect (although you can't judge a school's culture unless you've physically experienced it). Also provides figures re: how much funding each school gets (sometimes it's nice to have an understanding in this area ).

It depends on the school really. There have been moments when I've been really shocked by how similar it was. I did my Year 10 work experience at a private school and was surprised that the students were basically just smarter versions of the people at my school. There were still the typical dick heads, still the hard workers and so on, they were just doing harder stuff.

When I actually started working in schools, I found it surprising how similar the students' personalities were, in spite of their different backgrounds. In particular, their fears were quite similar (although, the topics of conversation were different—e.g. more focused on Uni).

There were some times it went the other way though. I was genuinely shocked taking a year 9 class once when the students actually sat down and worked, rather than devoting their time to finding new and creative ways to insult their teacher. It was genuinely weird to see a class that age working. Sitting in the waiting room on a ridiculously ostentatious butterfly lounge, staring at the paintings hung in the room also kind of jolted me a bit, because it all felt so foreign.


One of the key things though, to bring it back from ramblings, was the private school kids had a lot of angst about how they were perceived. They hated the idea that they were viewed as different by people in the public school system, just because they attended a particular school. It was the same sort of angst that we had at school; that we'd be judged for being from a public school.