What if rank 5, 6, 7 and 8 are on the same score?

[corza000]

For a fairly big cohort, how are final scores worked out if you are on the same score (rank)? For example, rank 5,6,7 and 8 are on the same score (and therefore technically all rank 5). Is it problemeatic to be on a same rank with a number of people as far as each student getting optimal study scores. I've heard its better for ranks to be spaced.

Thanks

[www]

Just from what I've heard from some teachers - they end up having to use their own discretion or some other factor to separate students who are at the same internal marks.

Edit: Should have made it a little more specific in light of the reply below: the marks remain the same, but ranks (I would think) would be separated.

[meganrobyn]

Nope, the teachers report the SAC performance exactly as it is. Which in theory could be *everyone* with the same mark.

VCAA then does a slightly complicated little equation with everything to moderate the SACs and allocate scores etc - it's mostly based on ranking, but the z score and distribution also play a role. I used to know the detail, but I don't specialise in maths so I forgot it.

Basically, don't worry about it.

[Sine]

Nope, the teachers report the SAC performance exactly as it is. Which in theory could be *everyone* with the same mark.

VCAA then does a slightly complicated little equation with everything to moderate the SACs and allocate scores etc - it's mostly based on ranking, but the z score and distribution also play a role. I used to know the detail, but I don't specialise in maths so I forgot it.

Basically, don't worry about it.

ehh what teachers are supposed to do and what they actually do are two completely different stories.

Usually teachers would actually have a look at trial exams as a tie breaker or other type of assesment (also can be discretional) - This is not what they are supposed to do but it happens.

If the rankings change the marks change too it is pretty dodgy but can/has been done.

[meganrobyn]

No, actually, that is NOT what happens. Teachers do not submit rankings to VCAA - they submit marks, and it's per outcome not overall. And they generally have no idea what marks the other teachers of the other classes in the same year level are submitting for their classes. You will *always* get multiple students with the same mark for a bunch of outcomes; it would be artificial and ridiculous to separate every single person out, not to mention the fact that you'd be risking serious disciplinary action and risking very likely being taken off VCE teaching. Teachers also know that the exam performance is the ultimate decider, so breaking the rules to rank people the way they want is going to have jack shit impact anyway, in the bigger picture. So stop talking about something you have no first-hand knowledge of, especially when it only has the effect of needlessly scaring or worrying current students and effectively smearing the general reputation of teachers.

[www]

spoiler because this is kinda long-ish

No, actually, that is NOT what happens. Teachers do not submit rankings to VCAA - they submit marks, and it's per outcome not overall.

I think they were talking more along the lines of ranks being determined on marks, and so if ranks were going be altered, changing the marks would result in the change of ranks (for that unit/outcome that has yet been locked off by an administrative deadline).

And they generally have no idea what marks the other teachers of the other classes in the same year level are submitting for their classes.

I've had teachers of large cohort subjects (who I don't even know or they have never taught me) come up to me and have a chat about how I'm going and my marks in the subject because they were looking at marks from other classes, and all the marks of the cohort in a single list. This is from personal experience, but of course it could indeed be the majority scenario that I am simply unaware of.

You will *always* get multiple students with the same mark for a bunch of outcomes; it would be artificial and ridiculous to separate every single person out, not to mention the fact that you'd be risking serious disciplinary action and risking very likely being taken off VCE teaching.

I would agree with you and say yes, it is ridiculous to separate every single person out, but the whole ranking business is more cutthroat at the higher ranks anyway, and those higher ranks are the ones which are mainly targeted for separation and adjustment if a teacher or teachers decide to do so. Ranking related questions on this forum appear to be mainly concerned about the top 10 or top 5 ranks from what I've seen.

So stop talking about something you have no first-hand knowledge of, especially when it only has the effect of needlessly scaring or worrying current students and effectively smearing the general reputation of teachers.

With all due respect to your experience and expertise, that could've been put in a more respectful way. Not having first hand knowledge of something is not a reason to dismiss someone else's experiences and offerings of what they think happens, and not a reason to ask them to 'stop talking' about it, regardless if it is right or wrong, especially because this is an open forum. There are posts and threads which already have users who tell others to generally not worry about these kinds of things, but the OP has asked this specific question and it is open up for anyone to contribute. If anything, the misinformed posts can be corrected by people such as yourself who have such insight.

I don't believe something like this 'smears' the reputation of teachers. These myths, rumours, understandings, etc. of how this all works I feel have existed for a long time, and I also feel that they come from/ are passed on by students and their peers themselves. This kind of ranking manipulation in whatever way it is done (let's face it) has probably happened for years by some teachers, despite every administrative rule put out there to standardise it. VCAA do audits or something sometimes, so they do have some sort of preventative measure, however, I'm not too clear on this as it's only been described to me briefly by a former teacher for one of my subjects which was being audited that year.

I apologise if my first post in this thread had misleading information. I also apologise for this post for somewhat obvious reasons; any mod or admin is free to remove it.

For OP: Yeah, literally just don't worry about it if you are. Focus on the exams cause ranks could mean nothing in the end!

[Sine]

spoiler because this is kinda long-ish

I think they were talking more along the lines of ranks being determined on marks, and so if ranks were going be altered, changing the marks would result in the change of ranks (for that unit/outcome that has yet been locked off by an administrative deadline).

I've had teachers of large cohort subjects (who I don't even know or they have never taught me) come up to me and have a chat about how I'm going and my marks in the subject because they were looking at marks from other classes, and all the marks of the cohort in a single list. This is from personal experience, but of course it could indeed be the majority scenario that I am simply unaware of.

I would agree with you and say yes, it is ridiculous to separate every single person out, but the whole ranking business is more cutthroat at the higher ranks anyway, and those higher ranks are the ones which are mainly targeted for separation and adjustment if a teacher or teachers decide to do so. Ranking related questions on this forum appear to be mainly concerned about the top 10 or top 5 ranks from what I've seen.

With all due respect to your experience and expertise, that could've been put in a more respectful way. Not having first hand knowledge of something is not a reason to dismiss someone else's experiences and offerings of what they think happens, and not a reason to ask them to 'stop talking' about it, regardless if it is right or wrong, especially because this is an open forum. There are posts and threads which already have users who tell others to generally not worry about these kinds of things, but the OP has asked this specific question and it is open up for anyone to contribute. If anything, the misinformed posts can be corrected by people such as yourself who have such insight.

I don't believe something like this 'smears' the reputation of teachers. These myths, rumours, understandings, etc. of how this all works I feel have existed for a long time, and I also feel that they come from/ are passed on by students and their peers themselves. This kind of ranking manipulation in whatever way it is done (let's face it) has probably happened for years by some teachers, despite every administrative rule put out there to standardise it. VCAA do audits or something sometimes, so they do have some sort of preventative measure, however, I'm not too clear on this as it's only been described to me briefly by a former teacher for one of my subjects which was being audited that year.

I apologise if my first post in this thread had misleading information. I also apologise for this post for somewhat obvious reasons; any mod or admin is free to remove it.

For OP: Yeah, literally just don't worry about it if you are. Focus on the exams cause ranks could mean nothing in the end!

don't worry www you certainly did nothing wrong all of "that" post was directed at me, great input nonetheless www