Bad ATAR but good GAT result?

[Confusedprincess]

Hi, I’ve been quite disappointed with my VCE results, having got an ATAR of only 77 (when I hoped to do arts at Melbourne or Monash universities). Obviously my school did not prepare students at my school at all for the exams, as we all got very poor scores, much worse than any of us expected. (I went to one of the most disadvantaged schools in the state.)

For my study scores I got:
English - 36 - A+/A/B
Sociology - 36 - A/A+/B+
Global Politics - 33 - A/A/B
Literature - 31 - B+/B+/B
History (Revs) - 31 - A/A/C+

I have several questions. Could it be that my cohort significantly brought down my results? In all my subjects, I did better in my SACs than my exam, could this be because we weren’t prepared enough for exams? (Most teachers didn’t even run practice exams).

In comparison to my ATAR/Study scores, I think I got reasonably high GAT scores except for maths. Standardised, I got

Maths/Science: 33
Humanities/Arts: 37
Written Communication: 41

Is it worthwhile to have my exams recounted, or to challenge my results in any way?

A lot of people on ATAR notes ‘defend the system’, and think that if you work hard, you get rewarded. I don’t believe that, and rather I think VCE is a game that favours the wealthy who go to private or selective schools, or people who study maths/science/LOTE. I feel if one is like me, going to a public school doing only humanities, the game is rigged against you.

[PhoenixxFire]

Your cohort could have altered your SAC scores slightly but they would have no effect on your exam score.

Are they your raw or scaled scores? Humanities scale down a lot because lots of people do well in them so they are scaled to make it fair for people doing harder subjects.

[Quantum44]

As PhoenixxFire said, your cohort has no effect on your exam scores, which is why people who go to low performing schools can still get 99+. It seems that your exam scores have dragged down your study scores, not your SACs, which means you were simply not prepared for the rigorous competition of the state.

If you want you can challenge your results there’s nothing stopping you, but GAT results are generally not indicative of study scores.

VCE is fundamentally a system based around hard work. There’s no doubt that socioeconomic factors come into play, but the only advantage of going to a private school is an understanding of the competition out there and how hard some people are willing to work to succeed, which in turn drives you to work. SEAS also gives considerable compensation to people with financial disadvantage. I saw in the newspaper today that someone from Frankston high got 99.90 this year, which just proves that anything is possible. The scaling advantage given to maths/science/LOTE is also there for a very good reason, because it’s incredibly difficult to get high raw scores in these subjects.

[brenden]

Yeah I agree with you OP but honestly, there’s not much you can do to change it now. Still apply to Monash and Melbourne, there’s a chance you get in with SEAS. University is an infinitely more even playing field, and also more impactful on your life as well.

Work hard at uni

[abbeyrose]

Hey there, I'm sorry to hear that you were disappointed with your results. I still think you've done significantly well and, as someone who also attended a school considered 'disadvantaged', I know firsthand that it can be a difficult feat. Please remember that your ATAR and study scores only reflect how you performed in one time and space compared to others, it doesn't measure or reflect your intelligence and you shouldn't let it dishearten you. The posts above me provide a wealth of knowledge, so I'm only going to add that you shouldn't give up all hope. Monash have the Monash Access Guarantee (or it's called something along those lines) which applies to their Arts course, which lowers the ATAR to 75 if you meet the requirements. If you've applied and been accepted for SEAS, then this should apply to you. Monash use factors such as if you attend an 'under-represented school' (they have a list of schools who are deemed this), that might be worth looking into if you haven't already. Best of luck! 

[Bri MT]

Hey!
I also go to one of the most disadvantaged schools (info in spoiler)

Spoiler

-At the start of the year we were given a talk about expectations as last year only a third of students got an ATAR above 50
-In the past few years our overall duxes have had below 90 ATARs
-someone duxing a subject with a study score in the 20s isn't rare
-it's rare for any student to have commercial notes, guides etc. and I don't know of anyone in my year level getting tutoring
-low SES area, many students are first in family to consider uni, often problems at home etc.

I get what you mean. I really do. This has affected my VCE in quite a few ways from subject selection (dropping subjects due to timetable clashes, not having spec offered at all etc.) to the culture.

For me personally, I look at my methods result of 34 and find it very dissapointing. (For context at a MAV lecture the presenter suggested I might be a 45+ type of student) There were three of us at the top of the class and the person who got rank one gave up on VCE at the end of the year and sat their exams without doing any prep. I couldn't help but wonder if this would've happened at a different school. But in the end, I could've/should've done better in the SACs and thus escaped a GA1 of C+. (Not to mention that the other 2 GAs were entirely under my control and carry the heaviest weighting or the fact that I had a great teacher who did a great job giving me exam advice and prep even if my highest GA was only an A).

Yeah, it can suck sometimes and you can wonder "what if" but in the end each student's learning is their responsibility and they need to own their performance. SEAS provides recognition of challenges that can affect learning but the ATAR itself needs to remain a measure of performance - and not be school adjusted.

From a technical standpoint looking at your GAs it would seem that your exam performance is what brought you down and that other students in your cohort had better exam seasons than you. As PF said, your cohort has no impact on your exam results.
 

I got a 49 in written comm on the GAT and only a 38 for English Language - I know that 38 is a more accurate reflection of my quality of work in that subject. I only scored in the 30s on the GAT for math/science yet I scored in the 40s for physics, chem, bio, and psych - I know that again my study scores are a more accurate reflection of my performance in these respective areas.
GAT scores are interesting, but they are certainly not a perfect predictors and I wouldn't use them as a basis for challenging results.

If you don't trust me because of my math/science affiliation, know that I have a friend at my school whose only subjects from this sector were methods and further, they didn't study a language, and they scored in the 90s.

The system is certainly not perfect but it is the best one that we have and it has been designed by people with more expertise than us students. It wouldn't really be fair if being average in a very competitive cohort got you the same mark as being average in a relatively weaker cohort. That's what scaling is designed for. Why you pick the subjects that make you compete with future med students who were very focused and determined if the difficulty of this wasn't compensated by scaling?

To end on a brighter note, going to an under rep school can be a great thing because you learn a fair amount of self sufficiency which is a very useful skill to have.
I'm very much looking forward to Uni where we won't be competing against students who have hundreds (or thousands) spent in VCE help, where I can learn more, collaborate more, and grow more. Things get better and I hope you share in my realistic optimism.

[21stressedout]

Firstly, 77 is a very good score, congratulations.

It looks like your exams (for all of your subjects) were the lowest GA, and may have lowered your SACs, but it would have definitely lowered your study score. This would mean that your school did not prepare you well enough, or you may have run out of steam (but I hope not!).

However, if you are at a disadvantaged school like me, you would've already received an email about the Monash Guarantee, where you need 75 for Arts. (80 for Access Melbourne). So Well Done!

Frankly, I had to get a subject reviewed last year (and my score did change) but the process was tedious and frankly, my school wasn't happy about having to do it. I didn't ended up getting my score changed until April, which would be redundant with course offers anyway.

And also, your problems with the VCE is not unique with the VCE, but frankly with the education system worldwide. Just be happy that there is compensation in place for disadvantaged schools, poor financial background.

[Clapped]

I agree that the system is not perfect but I think you’re being overly bitter and want to blame extraneous influences on your study scores.

I definitely do not agree with your sentiment in regards that VCE benefits students who take math/science/LOTE subjects. The competition is a lot more fierce and I had to work my ass off all year long to even compete with the ‘smart’ people in the state. I think Joseph41 got a higher ATAR than anyone in this thread by doing non-science/math subjects, there are a significant of their students in public schools that do humanities only and good very good ATARs.

Edit: not trying to attack you or anything but I think your frustration is a directed at the wrong places.

[Confusedprincess]

However, if you are at a disadvantaged school like me, you would've already received an email about the Monash Guarantee, where you need 75 for Arts. (80 for Access Melbourne). So Well Done!

Frankly, I had to get a subject reviewed last year (and my score did change) but the process was tedious and frankly, my school wasn't happy about having to do it. I didn't ended up getting my score changed until April, which would be redundant with course offers anyway.

I never got a Monash Guarantee email - although VCAA considers my school in the “underrepresented schools” category for SEAS, Monash does not for its guarantee.

In response to other posters, perhaps I have been bitter (why wouldn’t I be?). But it’s technically impossible to get an ATAR of 99.95 for anyone who studies only humanities subjects - so I think that’s a fair sign that the system is rigged against those who only do some subjects. (If you don’t believe me look it up on the ATAR calculator). I didn’t expect so much backlash telling me it’s my fault. I doubt many people here have actually been to a school where at least 50% of their subject class can’t even pass the year, so for teachers getting their students to do well on exams is an afterthought.

[Clapped]

You really only need to pick one non-humanities subject that can scale over 50 to get a 99.95 ATAR and the rest can be humanities subjects. So I don’t see how this is rigged against humanities students when everyone is forced to do an English. Maths/science/LOTE students are equally rightful to complain about the system as humanities students are.

And no, I’ve never been to a school where 50% of students have failed but my friends used to. They had to travel 1-2 hours each way to get to the public school I attend after getting in to the accelerated program instead of attending their ‘bad’ school, did you never consider doing this?

[brenden]

You really only need to pick one non-humanities subject that can scale over 50 to get a 99.95 ATAR and the rest can be humanities subjects. So I don’t see how this is rigged against humanities students when everyone is forced to do an English. Maths/science/LOTE students are equally rightful to complain about the system as humanities students are.

And no, I’ve never been to a school where 50% of students have failed but my friends used to. They had to travel 1-2 hours each way to get to the public school I attend after getting in to the accelerated program instead of attending their ‘bad’ school, did you never consider doing this?

Hard to consider things you’ve never heard of. 40,000+ students taking VCE, many at schools that are plainly inadequate. Is the solution for everyone to hear about accelerated programs before VCE and move to those schools? I’m not sure they’d all fit.

[Chelsea f.c.]

Hi,
I'm a commerce at Melbourne plus dip maths student at Melbourne who went to an elite school, but took a year off for personal reasons and studied year 11 again though I had already done well to pass the time at a disadvantaged school. So I can only congratulate your momentous efforts having noted the distinct difference in teaching quality between the two schools!!!

To tell you the truth I didn't fulfill the 95+ for BCom yet I average 87.5 across the finance major and plan to do honours in the following years and I can tell you it is rigged though not against humanities across schools where elite private schools may have 50% of students above 90 where as disadvantaged schools would be lucky for a handful and my schools best performing subject for the previous four years was literature

And if anyone wants proof just go to better education website...

But for going forwards universities are very generous to those who are disadvantaged and I may note as my mum works with the colleges that private schools have greater drop out rates so obviously knowing this they give a hand up to the disadvantaged.

More importantly you've learnt to do things for yourself which is tantamount at uni as there is no advantage when your only competition attends the same lectures and same tutorials and you've learnt to become diligent, hard working and dependent on yourself.

If you work hard at uni you'll achieve and to tell you the truth whatever uni you go to you'll be fine as having attained these qualities you'll be better off despite your score as if I was a recruiter I would rather someone who achieves in their course than just passes as I can tell you many do where one subject I did was scaled up by 10 because of the poor cohort at the most prestigious uni in the country!

Btw I created an account because of the shitty responses

[Bri MT]

I never got a Monash Guarantee email - although VCAA considers my school in the “underrepresented schools” category for SEAS, Monash does not for its guarantee.

In response to other posters, perhaps I have been bitter (why wouldn’t I be?). But it’s technically impossible to get an ATAR of 99.95 for anyone who studies only humanities subjects - so I think that’s a fair sign that the system is rigged against those who only do some subjects. (If you don’t believe me look it up on the ATAR calculator). I didn’t expect so much backlash telling me it’s my fault. I doubt many people here have actually been to a school where at least 50% of their subject class can’t even pass the year, so for teachers getting their students to do well on exams is an afterthought.

I disagree with some of the views that you have expressed but I can completely understand why you would be frustrated at having a limit on what you can achieve due to your subject choices.

Though it is possible to achieve great things at a disadvantaged school you shouldn't have had to deal with the barriers and hurdles that come with it. I certainly believe that it shouldn't be harder to achieve your goals because of your school and I also believe just because it is possible to still do well doesn't mean that it's equal.

From rereading my post I understand why it might be interpreted as backlash or an attack and genuinely apologise for my miscommunication if that has been the case. I wish I had had a different focus and I'm sorry for not being as sympathetic as I should've been.

Hard to consider things you’ve never heard of. 40,000+ students taking VCE, many at schools that are plainly inadequate. Is the solution for everyone to hear about accelerated programs before VCE and move to those schools? I’m not sure they’d all fit.

+1 
I didn't even know what a study score was until year 11, and didn't know ranking existed until term 3 of that year. ... And I'm the person at my school who teaches other students about the system.     I suspect that being highly ignorant about VCE is very common across under represented schools, and it's only once I was engaged in VCE that I really learnt about schools outside my municipality. It's very difficult to find solutions to a system that you don't understand.

You really only need to pick one non-humanities subject that can scale over 50 to get a 99.95 ATAR and the rest can be humanities subjects. So I don’t see how this is rigged against humanities students when everyone is forced to do an English. Maths/science/LOTE students are equally rightful to complain about the system as humanities students are.

And no, I’ve never been to a school where 50% of students have failed but my friends used to. They had to travel 1-2 hours each way to get to the public school I attend after getting in to the accelerated program instead of attending their ‘bad’ school, did you never consider doing this?

I can see where you are coming from but underrep school often intersects with other disadvantages that makes transferring to a select entry school more difficult. Can't really speak for if this is the case for OP but it's certainly not a solution available to everyone

[keltingmeith]

You really only need to pick one non-humanities subject that can scale over 50 to get a 99.95 ATAR and the rest can be humanities subjects. So I don’t see how this is rigged against humanities students when everyone is forced to do an English. Maths/science/LOTE students are equally rightful to complain about the system as humanities students are.

And no, I’ve never been to a school where 50% of students have failed but my friends used to. They had to travel 1-2 hours each way to get to the public school I attend after getting in to the accelerated program instead of attending their ‘bad’ school, did you never consider doing this?

I think there's something to be said about victim blaming, here.

I went to a school that was about in the middle - about 10/400 students a year got over 90. Basically on the cusp of being underrepresented at Monash (mainly because the Berwick campus, wouldn't be surprised if they are on it now with Berwick gone), and constantly at Melbourne.

You know who started to think about VCE before year 10? Literally no one, until subject selection came around. Hell, in year 9 the entire student populace complained about a ranking system, saying it was unfair and unrealistic, not realising we'd be in it in two more years.

So, you had friends who considered this stuff before year 10? Good for them - but they're not the norm. On top of that, we shouldn't be run by a system that requires you to plan years in ahead just to stand a chance.

[zhen]

I feel like I think that the scaling system is kind of fair, cause it tries to adjust according to cohort strength. But it doesn’t take into account things like the differing workloads of many subjects (personally had friends who did some of the “harder” subjects which scale up struggle with the workload of folio subjects which scale down). I also think that they artificially scale LOTE, meaning that they are scaled more than they should based on the normal system. But, considering the really intense workload in LOTE, I’m not sure whether this is a bad or a good thing. So, it’s a flawed system, but I think that it’s a reasonable way of comparing different subjects.

Although, I think the scaling system is somewhat fair, I think that the difference in level education between schools is definitely unfair. Personally, I feel like teachers definitely play a massive role in influencing a person’s scores, which I make very clear in my journal entries if you’ve read them. (Basically it involves my experience with a teacher who would sit at the front of the class doing nothing for half the lessons and who would refuse to mark essays) I feel like people can succeed in bad circumstances, but they shouldn’t have to face them in the first place. The fact that some students have to go through VCE with such a burden doesn’t feel right. I feel like SEAS does to an extent counteract this. However, the fact that monash doesn’t take this into account for you really is unfair.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Feel free to correct any misconceptions I may have or tell me if I say something offensive or present your side on stuff I’ve discussed. I’m just presenting my biased point of view, so feel free to dispute anything I’ve said.