Tetanus Assignment Help

[fishbiscuit]

Hello! I have an assessment task due on an infectious disease considering the cause, transmission, host response, major symptoms, treatment, prevention and control. I'm doing Tetanus.
I'm having trouble in doing the "host response" part of it
My teacher told me it should involve the immune response and we haven't reeeeally learnt it in class, so I've done some reading into the syllabus points but I don't really understand how it all goes together :/ but I would really like to get this assessment done early! (this month is really packed)

So for tetanus, the pathogen is a bacteria (Clostridium Tetani) and when it enters a deep puncture wound, it produces a neurotoxin, tetanospasmin, which causes tetanus. I've read that the immune system doesn't respond to this toxin because it doesn't provoke an immune response (idk why), so does the body just completely 'ignore' it...?
Would the immune system just respond in the aspect of destroying the bacteria and removing it from the body?
If so, does this involve phagocytosis and T cells and B cells?

I'm basically having trouble understanding how the immune system responds to a bacteria that produces a toxin. Does the immune system target both the bacteria and the toxin?
I'm also considering the fact that the individual has not received the vaccine for tetanus.

Sorry for the amount of questions. I have done research but I can't really find answers for specific questions or anything useful regarding immune response to the bacteria.
Thank you!

[KT Nyunt]

Hello! I have an assessment task due on an infectious disease considering the cause, transmission, host response, major symptoms, treatment, prevention and control. I'm doing Tetanus.
I'm having trouble in doing the "host response" part of it
My teacher told me it should involve the immune response and we haven't reeeeally learnt it in class, so I've done some reading into the syllabus points but I don't really understand how it all goes together :/ but I would really like to get this assessment done early! (this month is really packed)

So for tetanus, the pathogen is a bacteria (Clostridium Tetani) and when it enters a deep puncture wound, it produces a neurotoxin, tetanospasmin, which causes tetanus. I've read that the immune system doesn't respond to this toxin because it doesn't provoke an immune response (idk why), so does the body just completely 'ignore' it...?
Would the immune system just respond in the aspect of destroying the bacteria and removing it from the body?
If so, does this involve phagocytosis and T cells and B cells?

I'm basically having trouble understanding how the immune system responds to a bacteria that produces a toxin. Does the immune system target both the bacteria and the toxin?
I'm also considering the fact that the individual has not received the vaccine for tetanus.

Sorry for the amount of questions. I have done research but I can't really find answers for specific questions or anything useful regarding immune response to the bacteria.
Thank you!

Hello! I don't know too much about Tetanus so I'm unsure about this. Do you have to research Tetanus? I can answer your questions for Malaria and I find Malaria has very clear cut answers...

Otherwise, I did find these websites that may be of some use:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182454
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0171298504700807

It seems there definitely is an immune response as they are triggered by the Tetanus toxoid antigen. Also since there is a puncture wound (a breech of the first line of defence -the skin) this would induce an inflammatory response and phagocytosis (the second line of defence). This must occur as the second line of defence is non-specific, thus it doesn't care what type of pathogen it is attacking, it just occurs whenever there is a breach of the skin barrier to prevent any entering bacteria from progressing further.

I unfortunately don't know much more than that, but if you decide to switch to Malaria let me know 

[vox nihili]

So for tetanus, the pathogen is a bacteria (Clostridium Tetani) and when it enters a deep puncture wound, it produces a neurotoxin, tetanospasmin, which causes tetanus. I've read that the immune system doesn't respond to this toxin because it doesn't provoke an immune response (idk why), so does the body just completely 'ignore' it...?
Would the immune system just respond in the aspect of destroying the bacteria and removing it from the body?
If so, does this involve phagocytosis and T cells and B cells?

I'm basically having trouble understanding how the immune system responds to a bacteria that produces a toxin. Does the immune system target both the bacteria and the toxin?
I'm also considering the fact that the individual has not received the vaccine for tetanus.

Sorry for the amount of questions. I have done research but I can't really find answers for specific questions or anything useful regarding immune response to the bacteria.
Thank you!

I'm not sure where you've read that the immune system doesn't respond to the tetanus toxin, but that's total rubbish. It's one of the most immunogenic (i.e. immune system provoking) molecules known. Indeed, we stick it onto vaccines to facilitat ethe immune response to them.

Your question about the immune system responding to the bacteria and the toxin is a good one. You're right, they respond to both. The bacterium will have multiple antigens that can trigger the immune system. The immune system will use antibodies to neutralise the toxin, but those antibodies will also attack the toxin at its soruce (the bacterium), whilst also responding to other antigens.

[fishbiscuit]

Hello! I don't know too much about Tetanus so I'm unsure about this. Do you have to research Tetanus? I can answer your questions for Malaria and I find Malaria has very clear cut answers...

Otherwise, I did find these websites that may be of some use:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182454
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0171298504700807

It seems there definitely is an immune response as they are triggered by the Tetanus toxoid antigen. Also since there is a puncture wound (a breech of the first line of defence -the skin) this would induce an inflammatory response and phagocytosis (the second line of defence). This must occur as the second line of defence is non-specific, thus it doesn't care what type of pathogen it is attacking, it just occurs whenever there is a breach of the skin barrier to prevent any entering bacteria from progressing further.

I unfortunately don't know much more than that, but if you decide to switch to Malaria let me know 

I don't know if I'm doing this replying thing right but here we go.
My teacher said not to do malaria (i know, grrrr)
And I've also checked those sites but I didn't really look into them, I'll make sure to understand them further. Also, thank you for clarifying the fact that it's non-specific, so I guess I'll talk about those processes for the pathogen itself. But the thing about T cells and B cells, because I'm considering the situation if the bacteria was introduced to someone who has never had the vaccine, wouldn't they do their thing before phagocytosis? Because I've read that they attack and make copies of themselves (I haven't completely understood the process... :/)

[fishbiscuit]

I'm not sure where you've read that the immune system doesn't respond to the tetanus toxin, but that's total rubbish. It's one of the most immunogenic (i.e. immune system provoking) molecules known. Indeed, we stick it onto vaccines to facilitat ethe immune response to them.

Your question about the immune system responding to the bacteria and the toxin is a good one. You're right, they respond to both. The bacterium will have multiple antigens that can trigger the immune system. The immune system will use antibodies to neutralise the toxin, but those antibodies will also attack the toxin at its soruce (the bacterium), whilst also responding to other antigens.

I've read it in these sites:
 https://www.bethlehem.edu/document.doc?id=506
"Unlike many infectious diseases, recovery from naturally acquired tetanus does not
usually result in immunity to tetanus. This is due to the extreme potency of the
tetanospasmin toxin; even a lethal dose of tetanospasmin is insufficient to provoke an
immune response."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

They both say the same thing lol. Though the first one is coming from a nurse which is why I'm confused if I should trust it or not, because it doesn't sound right in the first place.
So about the immune response, the toxin will be neutralised and the bacterium will be attacked by antibodies?
Antibodies are produced after an individual has gotten the vaccine right? What if the individual has never gotten the vaccine and was exposed to this bacteria, would they have antibodies to do the attacking...?

[vox nihili]

I've read it in these sites:
 https://www.bethlehem.edu/document.doc?id=506
"Unlike many infectious diseases, recovery from naturally acquired tetanus does not
usually result in immunity to tetanus. This is due to the extreme potency of the
tetanospasmin toxin; even a lethal dose of tetanospasmin is insufficient to provoke an
immune response."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

They both say the same thing lol. Though the first one is coming from a nurse which is why I'm confused if I should trust it or not, because it doesn't sound right in the first place.
So about the immune response, the toxin will be neutralised and the bacterium will be attacked by antibodies?
Antibodies are produced after an individual has gotten the vaccine right? What if the individual has never gotten the vaccine and was exposed to this bacteria, would they have antibodies to do the attacking...?

Perhaps I’m missing something but these sites are wrong as far as I’m aware. The tetanus vaccine comprises tetanus toxin, which is why people experience arm pain after the vaccine, and we also use it to enhance other vaccines through means that are too complicated for here, so I’m having trouble undeestanding how th links you’ve shared make any sense. In any case, that’s really frustrating for you because it unnecessarily confuses you about your assignment!

I’m going to throw the question about vaccines and first infection back to you. What do you think the answers to those questions are? Think about what you know generically about infections and vaccines

[fishbiscuit]

Perhaps I’m missing something but these sites are wrong as far as I’m aware. The tetanus vaccine comprises tetanus toxin, which is why people experience arm pain after the vaccine, and we also use it to enhance other vaccines through means that are too complicated for here, so I’m having trouble undeestanding how th links you’ve shared make any sense. In any case, that’s really frustrating for you because it unnecessarily confuses you about your assignment!

I’m going to throw the question about vaccines and first infection back to you. What do you think the answers to those questions are? Think about what you know generically about infections and vaccines

Well, to my knowledge I know that vaccines are basically weakened versions of the bacteria, in this case the toxin, and it is introduced to the body so the body can prepare, so when the real thing comes, it's prepared to eliminate or neutralise it before symptoms occur. Hmm, kinda like the trial HSC. I'm not sure on the 'preparing' part of it though... but I know T-cells and B-cells and involved. What I basically know about them is that some T-cells help B-cells to make antibodies. But T-cells are usually doing the attacking.

So if the individual has never gotten the vaccine, I'm guessing it would almost be the same process but it would take longer for the body to 'prepare', because it is stronger. Wait so, the body can handle the actual bacteria (C. tetani) easily by phagocytosis and all, but the toxin requires that 'prep'?? Is that the case for tetanus?

Also, I've decided to ignore the thing about the toxin not provoking an immune response because as you said, the vaccine is literally the toxin (tetanus toxoid) and an immune response definitely occurs, so I think that's enough evidence to disprove that. thank you for your help so far by the way.

[KT Nyunt]

I don't know if I'm doing this replying thing right but here we go.
My teacher said not to do malaria (i know, grrrr)
And I've also checked those sites but I didn't really look into them, I'll make sure to understand them further. Also, thank you for clarifying the fact that it's non-specific, so I guess I'll talk about those processes for the pathogen itself. But the thing about T cells and B cells, because I'm considering the situation if the bacteria was introduced to someone who has never had the vaccine, wouldn't they do their thing before phagocytosis? Because I've read that they attack and make copies of themselves (I haven't completely understood the process... :/)

B cells and T cells are part of the 3rd line of defence, this is a specific process so the immune response is tailored to the antigen. Thus, the T cells and B cells do their stuff after phagocytosis technically (as phagocytosis is part of the second line).

You're right, a vaccine is comprised of an attenuated pathogen (in this case as you've said, the toxin of the bacteria), and what this does is expose a patient to the pathogen, mainly so they can their immune system makes memory B and T cells - which 'remember' an antigen so that it can mount a faster immune response upon a second encounter (with the real disease). Without the vaccine, these memory B and T cells would not be present, thus the individual would have a slower recovery and symptoms would also be more severe.

[KT Nyunt]

So basically here's what goes down in the 3rd line of defence...
The 3rd line involves B cells and T cells. B cells are most effective against extracellular pathogens (ie. Bacteria) and are involved in antibody-mediated immunity, whereas T cells most effective against intracellular infections (ie. Viruses) are involved in cell-mediated immunity.

Roles of B cells and T cells

(^ I also have this attached in case this does not work )

Hopefully this clears things up for you on what exactly the B cells and T cells do... This may be a little confusing, it took me some time to wrap my head around all the different cells and their roles so if you need any further clarification let me know

[fishbiscuit]

So basically here's what goes down in the 3rd line of defence...
The 3rd line involves B cells and T cells. B cells are most effective against extracellular pathogens (ie. Bacteria) and are involved in antibody-mediated immunity, whereas T cells most effective against intracellular infections (ie. Viruses) are involved in cell-mediated immunity.

Roles of B cells and T cells
(Image removed from quote.)
(^ I also have this attached in case this does not work )

Hopefully this clears things up for you on what exactly the B cells and T cells do... This may be a little confusing, it took me some time to wrap my head around all the different cells and their roles so if you need any further clarification let me know

You are literally an angel sent from heaven thank you so much for your help!!!! That table actually makes a lot of sense and thank you for clarifying the lines of defence (we haven't really learnt them in class and I didn't understand the textbook).
So, I remember you saying that breeching the skin is part of the first line of defence, phagocytosis is part of the second line of defence and B cells and T cells are part of the third line of defence.

I'm so sorry I have a question, if during phagocytosis the bacteria is engulfed and destroyed, how do B-cells and T-cells do their thing? Does phagocytosis involve breaking the bacteria into the antigen and then releasing it or something?

[KT Nyunt]

You are literally an angel sent from heaven thank you so much for your help!!!! That table actually makes a lot of sense and thank you for clarifying the lines of defence (we haven't really learnt them in class and I didn't understand the textbook).
So, I remember you saying that breeching the skin is part of the first line of defence, phagocytosis is part of the second line of defence and B cells and T cells are part of the third line of defence.

I'm so sorry I have a question, if during phagocytosis the bacteria is engulfed and destroyed, how do B-cells and T-cells do their thing? Does phagocytosis involve breaking the bacteria into the antigen and then releasing it or something?

Don't apologise! I'm more than happy to help So phagocytosis is involved in the second line, this involves phagocytes, including neutrophils macrophages. These are types of WBCs that engulf pathogens and destroy them (they have lysosomes inside them, which are sacs of digestive enzymes, these break down the pathogens). Recall that plasma B cells secrete antigen-specific antibodies. These antibodies bind to a specific antigen, flagging them down to be engulfed and destroyed by macrophages. Thus the antigen is involved in the 3rd line where it triggers an immune response.

So to answer your question...
1) the second line of defence is only activated once the 1st line is breached. Thus similarly, the third line of defence is only activated if the second line was not enough to stop invading pathogens from progressing further. So if the pathogen continues to grow, this is when B and T cells start to do their thing.
2) phagocytosis (and basically anything other than the 3rd line of defence) involves no antigens. Phagocytosis involves phagocytes which engulf and destroy pathogens using enzymes called lysosomes.

I just made a little visual for ya on the WBCs that are involved in the body's defence system. It's good to note that B cells and T cells are collectively called  lymphocytes. 

[fishbiscuit]

Don't apologise! I'm more than happy to help So phagocytosis is involved in the second line, this involves phagocytes, including neutrophils macrophages. These are types of WBCs that engulf pathogens and destroy them (they have lysosomes inside them, which are sacs of digestive enzymes, these break down the pathogens). Recall that plasma B cells secrete antigen-specific antibodies. These antibodies bind to a specific antigen, flagging them down to be engulfed and destroyed by macrophages. Thus the antigen is involved in the 3rd line where it triggers an immune response.

So to answer your question...
1) the second line of defence is only activated once the 1st line is breached. Thus similarly, the third line of defence is only activated if the second line was not enough to stop invading pathogens from progressing further. So if the pathogen continues to grow, this is when B and T cells start to do their thing.
2) phagocytosis (and basically anything other than the 3rd line of defence) involves no antigens. Phagocytosis involves phagocytes which engulf and destroy pathogens using enzymes called lysosomes.

I just made a little visual for ya on the WBCs that are involved in the body's defence system. It's good to note that B cells and T cells are collectively called  lymphocytes. 

Oh my god you do not understand how thankful I am   All this makes sooooo much more sense now I cannot thank you enough your visual is verryyyy helpful! Thanks sosososo much for your help!

[KT Nyunt]

Oh my god you do not understand how thankful I am   All this makes sooooo much more sense now I cannot thank you enough your visual is verryyyy helpful! Thanks sosososo much for your help!

No worries! Anytime 

[vox nihili]

Don't apologise! I'm more than happy to help So phagocytosis is involved in the second line, this involves phagocytes, including neutrophils macrophages. These are types of WBCs that engulf pathogens and destroy them (they have lysosomes inside them, which are sacs of digestive enzymes, these break down the pathogens). Recall that plasma B cells secrete antigen-specific antibodies. These antibodies bind to a specific antigen, flagging them down to be engulfed and destroyed by macrophages. Thus the antigen is involved in the 3rd line where it triggers an immune response.

So to answer your question...
1) the second line of defence is only activated once the 1st line is breached. Thus similarly, the third line of defence is only activated if the second line was not enough to stop invading pathogens from progressing further. So if the pathogen continues to grow, this is when B and T cells start to do their thing.
2) phagocytosis (and basically anything other than the 3rd line of defence) involves no antigens. Phagocytosis involves phagocytes which engulf and destroy pathogens using enzymes called lysosomes.

I just made a little visual for ya on the WBCs that are involved in the body's defence system. It's good to note that B cells and T cells are collectively called  lymphocytes. 

Nearly everything you’ve said here is absolutely perfect and I’m so, so impressed in the answers you’ve given—they’re great!

Just one tiny thing: we don’t really talk about lines of defence anymore, as they represent a flawed concept. You said that once the second line fails the third kicks in. This is not the case. The second line is quicker to respond, however, the third is already beginning to make antibodies and produce more T-cells even when the second line of defence is activated. When the third joins the party, it does so because of the complex interactions between it and the second line. These arms of the immune system then work together to deal with the threat, not in isolation.

A VCE-friendly example is this is the relationship between dendritic cells and T-cells. Dendritic cells engulf pathogens and then spit out fragments as antigens on the surface of its membrane, held in MHC class II molecules. T-cells (of the helper variety in this case) then bind to those MHC molecules and respond appropriately, along with a little bit of extra encouragement from the dendritic cell (beyond VCE knowledge now), which helps them decide what to do in response to the antigen.

[KT Nyunt]

Nearly everything you’ve said here is absolutely perfect and I’m so, so impressed in the answers you’ve given—they’re great!

Just one tiny thing: we don’t really talk about lines of defence anymore, as they represent a flawed concept. You said that once the second line fails the third kicks in. This is not the case. The second line is quicker to respond, however, the third is already beginning to make antibodies and produce more T-cells even when the second line of defence is activated. When the third joins the party, it does so because of the complex interactions between it and the second line. These arms of the immune system then work together to deal with the threat, not in isolation.

A VCE-friendly example is this is the relationship between dendritic cells and T-cells. Dendritic cells engulf pathogens and then spit out fragments as antigens on the surface of its membrane, held in MHC class II molecules. T-cells (of the helper variety in this case) then bind to those MHC molecules and respond appropriately, along with a little bit of extra encouragement from the dendritic cell (beyond VCE knowledge now), which helps them decide what to do in response to the antigen.

Ohhh I see. Thank you for clarifying that for me! So are dendritic cells another way of saying antigen-presenting cells like macrophages?