Playing the system

[kenhung123]

Some guys do Chinese second language and ESL. Apparently they are qualified. Is it true?

[dekoyl]

True. There is a time frame where you qualify for both CSL and ESL. My friend did this in '09.
Another old boy at our school did ESL and Lit. 50 for ESL and 49 for Lit. So yes, the system does have a few flaws.

[dodgedanpei]

Oh wow. That is impressive. My friend did Korean as a second language in 08 and is completing ESL this year.

[shinny]

Some guys do Chinese second language and ESL. Apparently they are qualified. Is it true?

I assume you mean people who are Chinese do this. Obviously if it was a foreigner from elsewhere, this is legit. But yeh, the worst 'offenders' for this are usually Malaysians from my experience since they learn both languages, will speak both relatively fluently in their home country, but are able to declare both as second languages.

[kyzoo]

Meh, is ESL really that much easier than normal English? Even if the exam is less strenuous, the score is still determined by percentile ranking; and there whilst there are 100 50's for English there are only 10-15 (actually I think there's less) for ESL.

Not that I would know =/ I'm just wondering.

[shinny]

Meh, is ESL really that much easier than normal English? Even if the exam is less strenuous, the score is still determined by percentile ranking; and there whilst there are 100 50's for English there are only 10-15 (actually I think there's less) for ESL.

Not that I would know =/ I'm just wondering.

But it's exactly that; it's a ranking. Their skill at English is being ranked against predominately those who are actually not very proficient at English, and will obviously score better. I mean, even at MHS we had people that did ESL who you wouldn't know was their 'second language'. There's a reason why ESL is MHS's top subject (yes, not BM - but the BM coordinator refuses to acknowledge ESL as a real subject).

[jejak]

I assume you mean people who are Chinese do this. Obviously if it was a foreigner from elsewhere, this is legit. But yeh, the worst 'offenders' for this are usually Malaysians from my experience since they learn both languages, will speak both relatively fluently in their home country, but are able to declare both as second languages.

+1 on the "Malaysian phenomenon." In fact, at my high school, there was one Chinese Malaysian student who studied ESL (SS of 50), Lit, Chinese SL and Indonesian SL (mutually intelligible with Malay.) I don't mean this as an indictment as such, but it does seem a tiny bit unfair.

I think as far as Chinese SL and SLA are concerned, the examiners realise something is up; in examiner's reports, they will often state that the listening section of the exam "proved to be the most determining factor" (or sth) for "genuine second language students."

Meh, is ESL really that much easier than normal English? Even if the exam is less strenuous, the score is still determined by percentile ranking; and there whilst there are 100 50's for English there are only 10-15 (actually I think there's less) for ESL.

As shinny points out, this would only be valid if every student had a roughly equal background in English (in terms of hours of exposure/hours of study.) As I understand it, there is an assumed "preparatory study" for ESL, indicating a certain proficiency in English, much like assumed knowledge for, say, Chemistry. ESL "offenders" manage to skew the ranking system in that their skills often far surpass the requirements of the preparatory study, whereas genuine ESL students begin farther behind. As the exam tests general proficiency in the second language, rather than a highly specific syllabus, of course those with years and years of exposure from childhood will excel.

[akira88]

Hmm how about people who are qualified for english as a second language but do english instead? do they get graded accordingly as a second language? And also what if they do french, but it is their first language? Are they just lucky? (This is the case with my boyfriend)

[Gloamglozer]

Hmm how about people who are qualified for english as a second language but do english instead? do they get graded accordingly as a second language? And also what if they do french, but it is their first language? Are they just lucky? (This is the case with my boyfriend)

If they do English, then they will be against all the people who do English.  They don't get "graded as a second language".

And they can do French.  They just have that added advantage.  Just look at Vietnamese as an extremely unfortunate example...

[ninwa]

ESL "offenders" manage to skew the ranking system in that their skills often far surpass the requirements of the preparatory study, whereas genuine ESL students begin farther behind. As the exam tests general proficiency in the second language, rather than a highly specific syllabus, of course those with years and years of exposure from childhood will excel.

I don't think it's just the ESL and native LOTE people who are "offending". I went into VCE music with 14 years of musical background (both theory and practical), compared to some people I know who picked up guitar in year 9 for interest's sake and hadn't even touched on basic music theory.

I do feel like I 'played' or cheated the system somehow. Don't really know how that can be fixed though.

[akira88]

Hmm how about people who are qualified for english as a second language but do english instead? do they get graded accordingly as a second language? And also what if they do french, but it is their first language? Are they just lucky? (This is the case with my boyfriend)

If they do English, then they will be against all the people who do English.  They don't get "graded as a second language".

And they can do French.  They just have that added advantage.  Just look at Vietnamese as an extremely unfortunate example...

Yeah i was wondering the same for vietnamese as well. No but he said that his French would be graded as a first language :|, as his oral was marked on the content of what he says, rather than his ability to speak the language :S But i wouldnt know..

[kenhung123]

I think vietnamese should have second language it seems to be quite a popular LOTE right?

[Gloamglozer]

I think vietnamese should have second language it seems to be quite a popular LOTE right?

They should have had a second language many years ago.  It's just that VCAA doesn't have the money to split the language into two categories.  One reason why the HSC > VCE.

[stonecold]

LOTE single handedly ruins VCE...

....i wish they would fix it.

[jejak]

I think vietnamese should have second language it seems to be quite a popular LOTE right?

Currently VCAA only offers Vietnamese as a second language. Instating a first-language/second language distinction sounds like a good idea in theory, but I think it would just end up more of a mess than the Chinese streams. Because really, as far as I know, the vast majority of people who take Viet SL currently are Australian-born peeps of Vietnamese or Chinese-Vietnamese background. So the main groups of potential students of Viet would look something like this:

A) Viet/Chinese-Viet who speak fluent Vietnamese at home
B) Viet/Chinese-Viet who can speak basic Vietnamese, but usually speak English/Cantonese etc. at home
C) Viet/Chinese-Viet who speak little or no Vietnamese, want to "reconnect" with culture etc.

There would also be a smaller group of:
D) Viet-born, recent immigrants who have been educated in Vietnamese.

How could VCAA possibly distinguish between these? Ostensibly people in group D could do a "first language" stream, and all the others "second lang", but that still doesn't clear up the differences in skills between A, B and C. This is similar to the problem that exists between Chinese SL, SLA, and FL, in that the groupings depend on years spent in Australia, not home language background, and home language background is impossible for VCAA to "measure."