Criticisms of the VCE

[crappy]

I too am confused with why they don't give Eng students a chance to show weakness.

I had very bad time management as well. Unlike you, I took tea regularly instead of coffee. I'd sometimes feel so tired after a day of school that I'd nearly fall asleep over my homework (usually winter). So sleep deprived too. Would sleep at 12.30 on an average night and wake up at 7.00. Over time, your body just can't cope anymore.

I have to agree with you on that.  So much time is wasted at school.  Currently, all of the studies I am taking require 17 contact hours per week at TAFE.  Why this nearly doubles at high school baffles me to be honest.  What you do in school is in my opinion, largely a waste of time.  Learning should be primarily an individual thing, and I tend to learn the most on my own at home.

I always felt tired after school.  When you consider travel time for most students, they wake up for school at around 7am and don't get home until 4.30-5.00.  That is a pretty long day, especially when you are expected to maintain approx 4 hours a day of study outside of school as well.

Uh-huh, so we have it tough?

Look at the tertiary entry exams in China, very rarely do students leave home after 6am, and very rarely do students leave school before 9pm, and very rarely do they relax when they get home.
And very rarely do they go and complain about how hard life is.

And I'm sure there are plenty of other countries in the same boat.

And here we are, complaining about 9-3 school days and a technicality in the system that is seemingly 'unfair'. Fair dinkum.

I know we have it easy compared to other countries.  What I am saying is that we spend too much time in school for the limited content which we actually learn.  If we are required to spend 7 hours each day in school.  Most of the time should be spent learning and studying, and not partaking in sporting carnivals, assemblies, masses, retreats, school productions etc.  If you want extra curricular activities, then they should be optional and take place outside of school.

I seriously believe that students would achieve better scores if the school day was shortened.  Remember that it is the quality of study that counts, not so much the quantity.  Students often get awfully distracted in school.

Are you serious? school would be an absolute bore to go to if you took out all those things. I agree that there should be more emphasis on studying, but to take out things like camp would just be wrong. Depends what kind of person you are...would probably work for a physical-activity-hating-bookwork I guess

[Ilovemathsmeth]

I hate physical activities. I never really participated in the extra curricular activities aside from debating. I'd have preferred a shorter school day which would probably have given me enough energy to study for the rest of the day at home. If that means taking out extra curricular activities, I'm for it.

[Mao]

Life's Wisdom #1 - you do not represent the society, the majority of the society doesn't think like you. But that doesn't make you special.

[kyzoo]

I always felt tired after school.  When you consider travel time for most students, they wake up for school at around 7am and don't get home until 4.30-5.00.  That is a pretty long day, especially when you are expected to maintain approx 4 hours a day of study outside of school as well.

Same, I get home anywhere from 4-6, but fatigue is easy to alleviate. I just lie in bed with eyes closed and iPod plugged in for 15-25 mins, and ta-da, energized once more.

What you do in school is in my opinion, largely a waste of time.  Learning should be primarily an individual thing, and I tend to learn the most on my own at home.

Last year I would have agreed with you, but not anymore. My learning is much more efficient during schooltime than during holiday time, despite the discrepancy in time available. Even in my Maths and Science classes, I've already learned stuff I would have never learned on my own; for English and LOTE, maybe only 50-70% of stuff I learn is due to individual study.

[TrueTears]

I can't imagine school without extracurricular activities... what's the point of studying the whole time? Do some sports/music etc, enjoy school.

[ninwa]

You still haven't told me why my logic was wrong. Why doesn't your argument lead to the conclusion that TT should not have gotten the same ENTER score you did?

(sorry for picking on you TT)

I’m bothered about solely my own ENTER. I don’t say I deserve higher than 99.75.

So what does this mean?

I’m just asking you, why is it that despite achieving similar raw scores, in fact more raw scores closer to 50, I achieved 99.75 and missed out from being waived HECs fees? What is lacking in me, apart from my English score? I did just as well subject wise. I also think that if the top 4 subjects are added together for each person and 10% of the bottom two subjects added to the aggregate without considering English in the top 4, I’d have the higher aggregate.

You did just as well, you have the higher raw score aggregate - so what's your point? I hardly think you were trying to say "I did better overall but my ENTER was still right!!!"

Clearly you can see that mine is higher, that this suggests my raw scores are higher and that overall I performed better in my subjects than person X. Not reflected in my ENTER is it?

Again - I hardly think you were suggesting your ENTER was too high.

You're saying if not for English you would have gotten a higher ENTER.
You then say therefore, English should not have been in the top 4.
Therefore, you think you should have gotten a higher ENTER.

Okay, so let’s think back to the argument presented – English being compulsory improves literacy rates. Fair enough. But why am I being penalized although as you said, I got in the top 7% of the cohort? Doesn’t that seem to show that I display pretty sufficient language skills?

This makes absolutely no sense. You were the top ~7%. Your study score reflects that. How are you being penalised? You got a GOOD score which reflects that fact that you are in the top 7%.

Maybe a better solution would be to just have a more challenging essay component of the GAT plus an additional spelling/grammar test provides universities with an idea of a candidate’s English abilities. In that sense, it also provides incentive for people to actually take the GAT seriously. A lot of people in my school don’t take the GAT seriously.

My English study score was 46. My GAT score for the writing section was 50. I would have loved to have my GAT score as my English study score. But god forbid that happens, you would just find something else to bitch about ("oh she only deserved a 46 why did she get 50 rah rah rah")

it was actually because I was unable to perform well in the subject.

I wasn’t intending to offend anybody on this thread.

Do you still not see how saying that a study score of 43, which a LOT of people would KILL for, is equivalent to not performing "well" is incredibly offensive to those who got a lower study score but worked extremely hard?!

I am simply a disappointed VCE student who feels that her ENTER score could have been higher if the system had been a little different. This is not called blaming the system.

How is that not blaming the system....


...

I give up. You clearly refuse to see logic and keep repeating the same thing over and over without realising that it is actually supporting my argument (and ignoring the bits you can't refute)... I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall

If people display weakness in English, how come they do not get the same consideration?

Okay, so let’s think back to the argument presented – English being compulsory improves literacy rates. Fair enough. But why am I being penalized although as you said, I got in the top 7% of the cohort? Doesn’t that seem to show that I display pretty sufficient language skills?

Sigh, enwiabe addressed this. English used to be not compulsory and was made compulsory because universities were complaining (apparently - I didn't know this!)

I have to agree with you on that.  So much time is wasted at school.  Currently, all of the studies I am taking require 17 contact hours per week at TAFE.  Why this nearly doubles at high school baffles me to be honest.  What you do in school is in my opinion, largely a waste of time.  Learning should be primarily an individual thing, and I tend to learn the most on my own at home.

I always felt tired after school.  When you consider travel time for most students, they wake up for school at around 7am and don't get home until 4.30-5.00.  That is a pretty long day, especially when you are expected to maintain approx 4 hours a day of study outside of school as well.

I agree. Waking up at 7 am, then school plus late arrival back home and then additional study adds up to a very long day.

Oh dear, wait til you start full time work. It's a lot worse. You should probably either get used to it or get on the dole.

[NE2000]

I think in the 'real world' extracurricular activities, and being able to use time to do things other than study, is very important. This is particularly true in countries like Australia where, in the end, academic achievement is not really as highly coveted as it is in other countries, particularly Asian countries. It's just a cultural thing. Universities and employers can take the attitude, 'ok, we know you're smart. What else?'

Something else I was thinking of: the American entry system, from what I've heard, takes a very holistic approach to judging an application (correct me if I'm wrong btw). They look at your SAT scores, achievements, essays etc. and they judge you. It is more subjective than what we have in Australia in that way, but would people like ilmm like that sort of system more? But then that subjectivity would create it's own element of criticism...I'm not saying that it's better or worse, just food for thought. Note that they still place a high emphasis on English due to the essays you must submit.

Wisdom is drawn out of knowledge. Wikipedia is never wrong (apart from when it is), it is the source of all knowledge, but is it the source of wisdom?

[ninwa]

I would've thought the requirement for an entry essay would be even less palatable than English in the top 4...

[NE2000]

Yeah I guess it would...but they do get time to work on it. Most American students trying to gain entry into the Ivy League will spend ages ensuring that it absolutely perfect I would imagine.

[Mao]

I have to agree with you on that.  So much time is wasted at school.  Currently, all of the studies I am taking require 17 contact hours per week at TAFE.  Why this nearly doubles at high school baffles me to be honest.  What you do in school is in my opinion, largely a waste of time.  Learning should be primarily an individual thing, and I tend to learn the most on my own at home.

I always felt tired after school.  When you consider travel time for most students, they wake up for school at around 7am and don't get home until 4.30-5.00.  That is a pretty long day, especially when you are expected to maintain approx 4 hours a day of study outside of school as well.

I agree. Waking up at 7 am, then school plus late arrival back home and then additional study adds up to a very long day.

Oh dear, wait til you start full time work. It's a lot worse. You should probably either get used to it or get on the dole.

You think full time work is hard? Wait till you have children

[ninwa]

Pffft, who wants kids? Damn brats.

Yeah I guess it would...but they do get time to work on it. Most American students trying to gain entry into the Ivy League will spend ages ensuring that it absolutely perfect I would imagine.

That's true, but if people can't even stand the thought of English in the top 4, then it'll be even worse when an essay is one of the major obstacles to even getting accepted into a university.

[QuantumJG]

Most of the time should be spent learning and studying, and not partaking in sporting carnivals, assemblies, masses, retreats, school productions etc.  If you want extra curricular activities, then they should be optional and take place outside of school.

I seriously believe that students would achieve better scores if the school day was shortened.  Remember that it is the quality of study that counts, not so much the quantity.  Students often get awfully distracted in school.

OMG I hated some of these things!

Sporting carnivals, we had two and if you came to school and didn't want to go to the carnival you were looked at as a disgrace. In year 12 I just found all the dates for these carnivals and stayed home. In earlier years we had to do sports and I would just do my maths... until the teacher found my pattern and gave me detentions.

Assemblies would annoy me because I would miss time on chemistry classes. What was even better was when we would have year 12 assemblies where we had motivational speakers regurgitate cliche after cliche or have our PTLs lecture us about how the study centre is being abused by drop-kick students (and there were times when you would be kicked out from it because of this).

With uni though it won't be any easier. I usually started uni at 10am (would leave home at 8am) and got home by 7pm. By the time I got home I would be so tired from commuting (standing on trains or being squeezed in a corner - I remember telling my auntie about being on a train for ages and she's like "well you can study on the train", I went "yeah...") I would procrastinate for an hour and then try studying.  

[QuantumJG]

I have to agree with you on that.  So much time is wasted at school.  Currently, all of the studies I am taking require 17 contact hours per week at TAFE.  Why this nearly doubles at high school baffles me to be honest.  What you do in school is in my opinion, largely a waste of time.  Learning should be primarily an individual thing, and I tend to learn the most on my own at home.

I always felt tired after school.  When you consider travel time for most students, they wake up for school at around 7am and don't get home until 4.30-5.00.  That is a pretty long day, especially when you are expected to maintain approx 4 hours a day of study outside of school as well.

I agree. Waking up at 7 am, then school plus late arrival back home and then additional study adds up to a very long day.

Oh dear, wait til you start full time work. It's a lot worse. You should probably either get used to it or get on the dole.

You think full time work is hard? Wait till you have children

Huh?

There us no way I would consider kids for atleast another 10 years. I would like to be close to paying off my house before that!

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Sporting carnivals, we had two and if you came to school and didn't want to go to the carnival you were looked at as a disgrace.

PSP wifi marathon.

(It's not my fault I didn't partcipate in the actual running/swimming, I just wasn't fast enough to qualify for anything  )

[ninwa]

Sporting carnivals, we had two and if you came to school and didn't want to go to the carnival you were looked at as a disgrace.

Yeah, I remember my head of house giving us this huge spiel about how we were "letting down the house" and "not doing our duty to the house" if we didn't turn up to house events like swimming and athletics.

Fail guilt trip though, I wagged them anyway