Criticisms of the VCE

[Cthulhu]

ilovemathsmethods you're sad you didn't get 99.90?
I'm going to tell you a secret... a deep dark secret that you will probably find out for yourself but I'm telling you now: after the day you get your ENTER score: no one gives a shit about it; it is a novelty item in university that is used to determine if you worked hard enough to get into the course you wanted.

English being in the top four is an incentive for people to actually learn and do well in English so they are ready for university. If it wasn't in the top four students wouldn't take it seriously and only attempt to get the minimum they need to get into university which is a SS of 25. This would leave them unready for the task of writing essays in university where the standards are set much higher. No matter what degree you do you will still have to write an essay some point in your undergraduate life.

That is all. I am leaving this thread forever.
 

[shinny]

You do realise that university degrees will require you to write essays? Every single degree (with the exception of perhaps medicine - I'm not sure about that one)...

Even Medicine does. Been through like 2 long essays this year already (3000 words or so).

Anywho, I think people are overlooking the whole point of mainstream VCE English. Already this year, the skills I learnt in Language Analysis came useful when I had to do an assignment on how medical stories and 'facts' are skewed in the media. This also has implications on pharmaceutical advertising to doctors and so on, so it will have some use at least in my own career. Also, such skills are going to be useful for you guys when you begin taking control of your own lives and have to make lots of decisions. Such decisions are going to be skewed by the inevitable torrent of crap coming out from the media and advertising, and it is really up to such skills to filter through said crap.

Context on the other hand, depending on how you approach it, at least helped me to develop the skills I needed for academic writing since I focused predominately on expository, and hence allowed me to develop a style which could explain things clearly. I've also found that in general life, the way I explain things is clearer and more succinct now in things such as tutoring and teaching things to friends at uni etc. While I can't attribute this solely to just VCE, it definitely had an effect.

Next, what I believe most people are overlooking is that English is not just a subject about writing! What my first tutor said and what has stuck in my approach to this subject is that it is actually one of the few 'thinking' subjects in VCE. Yep, it does involve a lot of thought. Compared to the many rote learning subjects such as business management, the difficulty of the thinking required in English is actually much harder. Hell, I found the thinking in English actually more difficult than most sections of subjects such as even Specialist Maths because of the distinction that in Maths, everything has already been done for you. The formulae, step-by-step methods, shortcuts, theory and so on are all set out for you in a textbook, and whether you take the 'correct' way and understand the concepts or just memorise such textbook examples, it can still be said that you're still just copying someone else's work. The same can be said for most Maths/Science subjects. In contrast in English, there is no right way regarding your ideas. The majority of ideas that will score you some actual marks will not be ideas that you've ripped from a study guide, nor heard from others. It is purely your thinking alone that will get you these ideas - not someone else's. What sounds more difficult? The reason why many don't achieve the English score they want is because they lack this ability to 'think outside the square', and consequently, I think it's fitting that they don't achieve those 99.90+ scores because honestly, such skills seem way more desirable to me than the ability to recall the process for solving implicit differentials.

Also, people continue to question the point of texts and say that they're pointless, but they're really only there as a medium to base your ideas around- I mean, what the hell else are they going to get you going to write on? It's not something as simple as "they're just getting us to talk about characters and themes, what's the point in that?". It's just that there's not much better to write on which doesn't disadvantage certain groups.

Overall, I also think that just people need to get off their Maths/Science high-horses and realise that humanities subjects can actually be far more challenging depending on what kind of person, and I guess, what type of intelligence you have. There's nothing to say that just because you aced Maths, that you deserve a higher ENTER. You really should actually be grateful that the current VCE system favours such students already, and in turn, penalises students who study humanities subjects because it can be seen that the majority of the people in these subjects are perhaps not as smart as the rest of the VCE cohort, and hence the entire cohort for that subject consequently gets scaled down. However, I have no doubt that some of the most brilliant minds I've met in my life are those who sit at the top of these penalised humanities cohorts, because like I said before, these are often the people that have the ability to think for themselves, not just work off someone else's work.

EDIT: Do note that I'm referring to VCE-style Maths. Obviously high level Maths involves a high degree of thinking on one's own part - I just don't think VCE does.

[ninwa]

You do realise that university degrees will require you to write essays? Every single degree (with the exception of perhaps medicine - I'm not sure about that one)...

Even Medicine does. Been through like 2 long essays this year already (3000 words or so).

Oh wow. The longest essay I've written thus far is 1500 words....

"Those 30s subjects may have merely been more difficult than your "near 50s" subjects."

Well I confess myself disappointed that you can belittle my efforts in getting near 50 for Maths Methods, Accounting and Further Maths.

No, merely explaining why someone who gets "only 30s" can still receive an ENTER of 99.90. Obviously those subjects were harder to get a 30 in, and therefore scaling made up for it.

Believe I deserved? I'd have got around there myself had English been in my bottom two, as it was my lowest study score.

Yes, HAD IT BEEN in your bottom two. But it wasn't. As polky said, you had plenty of warning that this was how the system would work. This is how it works for everyone, i.e. everyone is on equal ground (with regards to the system anyway, don't want to get into that old private/public school resources blah blah blah debate), and on this equal ground, you did not do as well as those who received an ENTER of 99.90. Therefore, no, you did not deserve to get higher.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who believes English shouldn't be in the top 4.

Perhaps, but justifying this contention on the basis of "I deserved a higher ENTER therefore the system is wrong" is hardly a convincing argument.

Overall, I also think that just people need to get off their Maths/Science high-horses and realise that humanities subjects can actually be far more challenging depending on what kind of person, and I guess, what type of intelligence you have. There's nothing to say that just because you aced Maths, that you deserve a higher ENTER. You really should actually be grateful that the current VCE system favours such students already, and in turn, penalises students who study humanities subjects because it can be seen that the majority of the people in these subjects are perhaps not as smart as the rest of the VCE cohort, and hence the entire cohort for that subject consequently gets scaled down. However, I have no doubt that some of the most brilliant minds I've met in my life are those who sit at the top of these penalised humanities cohorts, because like I said before, these are often the people that have the ability to think for themselves, not just work off someone else's work.

+10000000000000000
you said it better than I ever could have

[schmalex]

I think it depends on the subject and the teacher, but can I just say that I thoroughly enjoyed studying National Politics last year. I didn't rote-learn anything, I feel like I've learnt a lot of useful information that I can apply to things i read in the paper and such, and I got a 43 by creating my own opinion and ideas on things. I didn't pre-prepare any essays at all, as a mattter of fact I wrote things in essays that I didn't even realise until I started writing. I am sure you COULD have tried to approach the subject strategically, but I didn't and managed to enjoy myself and do well. So that's my experience....

[NE2000]

First of all, that post by shinny is awesome, couldn't have put it better. And remember this is a guy who did methods, spesh, chemistry, biology and whose ENTER would have been much higher if that 43 in English was converted to a 50 (which he probably did deserve given his outstanding contributions in the English forum).

And NE2000, your example was enlightening. What about someone who gets five 50s and 35 for English? According to the present system, they're going to get around 99.30. They wouldn't be disadvantaged with the above suggestion because they'd end up getting approx the same as they would in this system. Maybe they got 35 for English because they gave up? Maybe 40 is a more achievable goal for them?

What I'm trying to say is you cannot have a system where people that get 40+ in English are treated differently to people who get less than 40. That's a lot worse than the scaling that happens with specialist math or the current system where English is in the Top 4 but everyone is treated the same. And if they got a 35 because they gave up, then whose fault is that?

Look, I personally am not entirely sold on the English top 4 thing either, I don't entirely agree that it's necessary, but I'm a bit ambivalent on the point. In fact I'm a bit uneasy with the entire concept of the top 4, because some people have dumped subjects just because it is bottom 2 to focus on others, and I think the concept of a top 4 encourages such practices when the VCE should be encouraging more, not less, breadth in learning. English is hard for some people and the top 4 regulation does affect some people greatly. But the way you have presented your arguments and the alternatives you have considered aren't logical. You have attempted to discredit it as a subject, and as shinny and ninwa have proven, it's a very important subject for future life.

You can probably tell from my subjects and posts that I'm a maths-science person. But not only did I know that English would make or break my ENTER, I also tried to have fun with the subject. As shinny said, it's a thinking subject. From all your posts it seems that you've been too marks-driven to sit back and appreciate the power of original thought in the subject. And out of all the books you could criticize, Hard Times! There is so much to write about on that text simply because the writer is a genius who overloads his books with imagery and metaphors. The plot is very much a device. It is a very very dense text. It's awesome to analyze; many people would love to have it over their own text. The literary merit compared to Dickens' other novels could be disputed but that's not really your qualm with it.

[EvangelionZeta]

Polky, unlike some people a loss of motivation doesn't make me stop working. It just makes me hate my life and the subject that I'm studying. So no, I don't think the 'if I'd worked a bit harder I might have got higher in English' doesn't really apply to me. That was basically my standard on the day of the exam. Call it shit teacher, or lack of exceptional English skills or whatever - it was what I got.

I'm past regretting my English score. I'm regretting why it's even compulsory. The name of his thread is called 'Criticisms of the VCE'. I'm not saying I'm correct in my opinions; they're just my view. There is absolutely no need for people to sink so low and tell me that I 'do not deserve to get higher'. Because basically they don't know me, nor have they seen the extent to which I've worked.

Cthulhu, I'm not sure why you're stereotyping everyone as being the type to take English easy if it wasn't in the top 4. I suspected from the start of the year that Chem and Accounting would be in my bottom two. Did I slack off for them? Similarly if English weren't compulsory, someone like me would have had a heart attack if they'd scored less than 40 for it. Just enlightening you that your stereotype doesn't fit me. And the only reason I wanted to get higher is because I wanted to feel self-satisfied that 3 years of hardwork had been rewarded. Not because I think Melb Uni is going to give a shit, because I really don't think they would.

To all you English fanatics out there, can I ask why VCAA are debating to remove English from the top 4 in the next few years? I'm asking, why not do it sooner and spare people like me?

Shinny, if you think doing well in Maths is simply 'copying someone's work' how come only thirty people in the state get 50? Clearly there is some other process that is involved.

Well ninwa, I disagree that I didn't do as well as those who got 99.90. People can get 99.90 with a 38 in Chem, a 36 in Methods and two 48s and two 50s. Apart from English, I'm about there myself. Which explains my annoyance with the system. Being exempt from paying HECs is a HELL of a big deal. Isn't it a lot harder to get above 40 for all your subjects than get subjects in the 30s? And no, I don't care about subject difficulty - I'm talking raw scores.

You know what's hilarious - I thought this forum would understand where I'm coming from, since it comprises of people who want to do well themselves. It's disappointing that we've got so many worshippers of the VCE system. Accept it for its flaws guys.

And you must excuse me if I did find English useless - once again, only my opinion. Just like some of you love English here, I just happened to hate it with a passion.

I can even live with Eng being compulsory, just not it's presence in the top 4. If you look at it from my point of view, it can be quite crushing to have a 44 and a 49 in your bottom 2.

And I'd have had the same contention even if I'd done very well in English.

EZ Edit: Got rid of TRIPLE post...

I think the biggest problem with what you're arguing is that what you're saying seems to treat VCE as a system where it's all about being rewarded marks-wise for hard work.  Universities don't care about "raw scores" or the number of marks you got in a subject - they care about the collective merit of you as a student.  From my point of view, the logic of the top 4 makes sense in that for most career paths, four subjects at most would be needed for skills and so on.  Medicine would hardly need more than Biology, Chemistry, Methods and English.  VCAA isn't there to handle your self-satisfaction; it's there to ensure that Unis get the students with the aptitudes that they need, and this includes a high level of competence in English for students who (in their opinion) warrant HECS-exemption.

[NE2000]

hey ilmm, some of your posts give me the impression that you don't fully understand the relative nature of VCE study scores. When you say things like why only 30 people in the state get 50 and how only students confident of getting a high SS in spesh should do it....but maybe I'm misinterpreting you

[IntoTheNewWorld]

hey ilmm, some of your posts give me the impression that you don't fully understand the relative nature of VCE study scores. When you say things like why only 30 people in the state get 50 and how only students confident of getting a high SS in spesh should do it....but maybe I'm misinterpreting you

I also get that impression from her.

[appianway]

Ilovemathsmeth, even though you're not happy with your ENTER (which still places you in the top 0.25% of the stat), you should feel over the moon with your individual subject results. Try to focus on those - I know that you're not elated with English (presumably for the reason that it ruled you out of contention for scholarships), but your marks in methods, psychology, accounting and further maths are exceptional. You did amazingly well in VCE. Don't forget that.

[Gloamglozer]

...  Can I ask why VCAA are debating to remove English from the top 4 in the next few years? I'm asking, why not do it sooner and spare people like me?

When did they say that?  I thought that with the national curriculum they'd still have English (or a form of English) as a "major" subject, aren't they?

[Gloamglozer]

It's a rumour that's been circulating since pretty much forever

Ah, I must be growing old now, me ears and senses are starting to fail me. 

EDIT:  But you said it was a "rumour".  Lots of rumours have circulated since the start of VCE: like VCAA dropping English out of the top 4 for the last...  decade.

[schmalex]

That's what I meant, people are ALWAYS saying that VCAA is thinking about dropping English out of top 4 but it's never going to happen...

[Glockmeister]

English being removed from the Top 4 will never happen, it'd just cause too much controversy (the conservatives will point out that this is yet 'another example of declining English standards amongst our youth').

[Gloamglozer]

English being removed from the Top 4 will never happen, it'd just cause too much controversy (the conservatives will point out that this is yet 'another example of declining English standards amongst our youth').

That's why I was confused when ILMM was talking about when she said "VCAA was debating..." because I never heard about them debating about that.

[monokekie]

with regards to whether English should stop being compulsory, i can't imagine how a person whos got 45+ for Chinese, Methods, Specialist, Latin and Further( while scored a <20 in ESL/English) would be able to cope with a higher education without an enormous amount of struggling, nor do i think he/she would be able to succeed during his/her career in Australia due to the lack of an average communication skill.

^^^hence, i think English/ESL should be made compulsory. Also, comparing Australia/Victoria to other countries whove made many science/humanity subjects compulsory(eg, India, China), to be frank, the VCE system is already user-friendly enough, not to mention other humane factors including offering exam inspections, exam downloads, statement of marks etc.

that's just my point of view on this issue.