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December 17, 2025, 02:49:31 am

Author Topic: State selective schools  (Read 10097 times)  Share 

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brendan

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2008, 10:05:02 pm »
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mao requested it be removed

costargh

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2008, 10:14:21 pm »
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OMG, "Ian McKenzie"

thats my principal xD

<removed by request>

it was 8.30pm when you posted that edit, what are you doing with your yr 12 coordinator :|

LMAO. I hope its a SHE =p

I think you're turning into droodles.  :o

I've always been myself. Believe it or not, I do have a sense of humour =)

jess3254

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2008, 10:50:37 pm »
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I'm also tired of journalists and teachers using the word “poached” in this context. I’ve read many articles which state, ‘the school’s brightest students have being poached by selective and private schools” etc.

And in the article I just read:
“He says 17 of his teachers - from the hard-to-staff science, maths and language fields - have been poached by private schools in the past two years and he is still struggling to fill some of the vacancies.”
That’s ridiculous, because if the teachers were satisfied with the facilities and nature of the school, they would have stayed. They actively sought to apply for a position at a private school; the private school didn’t come over and kidnap them. 

I think some views expressed in the media are far too simplistic; they assume students who apply for specialist schools are ‘advantaged’ by definition (which is certainly not always true), and thus don’t deserve as much funding as students who are disadvantaged or have learning difficulties. They don’t realise that a majority of students in this so-called ‘advantaged’ category are taunted, bullied and thus become completely despondent and unhappy. Placing them in an environment, which has a vast number of students who are like-minded or equally as motivated is a breath of fresh air from them, which allows them to excel and enjoy school. 

All areas of education deserve sufficient funding. A particular group should not be discriminated against, solely on the basis that they make up 5% of a cohort.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:22:32 pm by jess3254 »

Collin Li

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2008, 10:55:11 pm »
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jess: you're on the ball. It's a voluntary transaction, and some third-party has no right to barge in and say "you two can't trade with each other!"

brendan

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 12:32:06 am »
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/larissa-dubecki/2008/04/07/1207420296238.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Smart kids deserve our help, too

Larissa Dubecki
April 8, 2008

It's unfair to sacrifice bright students for a misguided ideology.

WE WEREN'T always so proud of our school, my MacRob buddies and I. Going to socials held by neighbouring boys' schools it was easier to say we went to St Catherine's or Merton Hall than to live Dorothy Parker's adage that boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses (or who enjoy advanced classes).

But some necessary social obfuscation aside, it was pretty evident from the first week at MacRobertson Girls' High, a government school that accepts students from years 9 to 12 based on academic performance, that we'd landed on our sensibly shod feet in a place that was vastly different to the mostly government, mostly suburban, schools we had come from.

For me, the light-bulb moment was realising I no longer had to deliberately mess up my grammar and spelling to slip under the bullies' radar. It was also the not-so-thrilling realisation that if I wanted to be at the top of the class, I'd have to damn well work hard for it.

The Victorian Government last week announced the detail of a pre-election promise to build two more selective secondary schools in Melbourne in addition to MacRob and its boys' equivalent, Melbourne High. The two co-ed campuses will be built at a cost of $40 million in growth areas Berwick (for 1200 students) and Wyndham Vale (800 students), with plans to open for year 9 students in 2010.

Now, no one likes a smart-arse, and MacRob and Melbourne High aren't exactly popular among much of their state school fraternity. The usual ideology-driven objections have been raised over the plan for their co-ed clones. The accusation that they are elitist has been thrown down like an unanswerable slur.

It seems an incongruous accusation, given that we accept elitism in most other facets of life, including our education system. Private schools — and there's nothing more elitist than a good education being predicated on wealth — are an entrenched part of the system, but when it comes to giving a few hundred children a year an escape hatch from a system often ill-suited to their needs, suddenly it's a problem. Elitism is commendable when it comes to sport; no one accuses the Australian Institute of Sport of being somehow unfair to the rest of the population.

At the lower end of the academic spectrum, children with learning disabilities are catered for with special programs. But the students who happen to be bright and possibly, God forbid, enjoy learning, are being asked to submit themselves to classrooms in which the all-too-familiar scenario features harried teachers struggling to keep control over a disruptive minority. In all the debate there's precious little talk about the high-achieving students themselves.

There's plenty of concern for the students at the lower end of the spectrum; namely the fear that standards will drop without some mythical stabilising influence from the ones at the top.

We've seen plenty of newspaper articles on the subject with headlines such as "Don't let schools lose their best", like individual students are trophies. One Sydney academic has even argued against selective schools on the basis that they remove the pupils who provide a challenge to the teachers, an idea that would be worthy of the Comedy Festival if it wasn't simultaneously so bleak.

But while educationalists talk about the "pilot effect", in which higher-achieving students supposedly lead their classmates by being role models, it ignores the sad reality that plenty of high schools are dog-eat-dog worlds in which smarter children turn their talents to hiding their ability rather than celebrating it. At the local high school I survived for two miserable years, it was — how do I put this delicately? — perhaps not medically advisable to volunteer to lead class discussions.

Education Minister Bronwyn Pike also announced last week the raising of the cap from 3% to 5% on the number of students allowed to leave any individual school to attend a selective school. Critics say the increase will inflict further pain on garden-variety high schools, but the argument is based on the assumption that everyone who can go selective will take the option. In my experience, some sit the exam only to knock back a resulting offer. Others, mostly those with well-established peer networks, prefer to stay where they are, or are turned off at the prospect of a daily commute. Anyway, even if a small handful of students were to depart some schools, it would have far less impact than the increasingly common practice of internal streaming, in which schools cream off the top 25 or so students in each year level and put them in a specialist class.

Some students will thrive no matter where they go. Many won't. The advocates of a trickle-down education system are utterly naive. And utterly heartless when it comes to the sacrifice they're willing to make to "fix" the ailing government system. It's not the smart kids' job to try to turn it around. More often than not they'll just end up dumbing themselves down rather than raising the standards for everyone.

Using the bright children as the canaries in the mineshaft is all very good for the miners but it sucks for the canaries. I don't know what my life would have been like if I hadn't gone to a selective school. I'm pretty sure it would have been a lot different. And I'm glad that another few hundred children a year will have a chance to change their lives, too.

Larissa Dubecki is a staff writer.

Mao

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 08:32:59 am »
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The response ... got axed...?

Quote

...and the quote got axed too

this is where the messenger gets shot, then gets shot for getting shot, WTF?

Aha, fun, :P
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:22:35 pm by Mao »
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enwiabe

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 11:20:32 am »
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Ding ding ding... Round 2!

Collin Li

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 11:55:55 am »
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What is he complaining about? Do selective state schools receive more funding per student than other state schools?

The 'utopian' ideal of equality in education poses a false reality: that everyone can harmoniously enjoy a high-quality education given there is more funding. Instead, the policies intend to choke brighter students from going to higher levels, just to preserve this equality. It is truly the politics of envy - if I can't have it, he can't have it.

It is important that we don't forget that the transfer, of the so-called 'poached' teachers and students, was voluntary. His claim that it "has been demonstrated that when “more academically able” students work in heterogeneous groups every one flourishes and grows" is obviously not true, because the academically able students have voluntarily chose to go to a selective school, believing it will benefit them more. They simply have no obligation to carry the burden of the less capable students, and such opposition to selective schools is a misguided, trickle-down, voodoo education policy.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:06:21 pm by coblin »

brendan

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 06:41:54 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 06:58:43 pm by Brendan »

jess3254

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 07:19:46 pm »
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Any money spent on ‘average’ students or disadvantaged students will NOT assist academically capable students. They are a completely different cohort. A large sum of money in education, due to vast differences in capabilities, cannot be directed to benefit everyone. People who argue that ‘the money should be spent on every student’ don’t seem to consider this. Every area of education requires different levels of sufficient funding and resources. Even if we were to assimilate these students into regular schools, they would either lag behind, become miserable, unchallenged and unsatisfied with school, or large amounts of separate funding would still be required to run advanced programs and different curriculums (And I'm not just SEAL or whatever it's called - more than that.) And, I bet people would still complain about the profound segregation between academically capable and disadvantaged students as a result of the different programs. It's not as simple as, 'let's spend money to benefit EVERY STUDENT'.

brendan

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 08:49:23 pm »
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jess3254

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 08:02:00 pm »
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How did Ian Mckenzie get Brendan's letter?

Toothpaste

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 08:18:41 pm »
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How did Ian Mckenzie get Brendan's letter?
He's Mao's principal. :)

Mao

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2008, 11:05:03 pm »
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to set the records straight (sick of the small politics bullshit):

it has been requested that the response from Mr McKenzie to be removed. originally it has been requested that the response from Mr McKenzie be incorporated in my rebuttal to brendan's argument, which happens to be against what i actually think. originally it has also been requested that he remains anonymous.
apparently it is quite controversial, and somewhat media-sensitive.

so i'd like to ask, why hide unless there is something to hide? Mr McKenzie's response does not contradict what he claimed in the article featured in the Age, so why the fuss?

while that is unanswered, can i please ask that no versions of his response be re-posted, until this crap has been sorted out, if it can be sorted out at all...

overall, I fail to appreciate the way one-size-fit-all education system works, as well as the way some protect it. whilst the achievements of others are important, that should not be the duty of their peers. we should all have the freedom of choice not based on socioeconomical backgrounds, but where that option is not available, then what freedom and choice? full support to select-entry~
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bubble sunglasses

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Re: State selective schools
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2008, 11:48:07 pm »
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Children from migrant families top state schools

School in 'standover' claim

  Yeah, my school's dux, from China, pwned his classes and had to spend several hours a week helping the cleaners. It was humbling to see him finishing Methods sacs in half the allotted time and then picking up rubbish

Select schools benefit all state students

Cap on elite state schools under fire