Is VCE fair?

[matt123]

Face it, life isn't fair. So exams are stressful, and you only get one chance to perform - this happens in the real world too (in the workplace, etc.).

I personally think exams are a great way to test us, it shows what we are like under pressure and really seperates the better students from the rest. Inevitably, some students are left behind by stressing out in the exam but if you think about it, only 4 of your subjects makes a huge difference to your ATAR, it is unlikely that you're going to screw up 3+ of them (if you end up doing 6-7). Plus you have the GAT if for some reason you can't sit the exam.

I do feel however that English in top 4 is BS, simply because some people enjoy it and are bound to do better...

If all maths/science students have to do one of the three English's, then all humanities/arts students should have to do one of the three maths

i couldnt agree more with ur last statement tbh.

its bloody BS that english is in the top 4.
it should be compulsory .. but not in the top 4.

[Russ]

Why would you make it compulsory but not in the top 4? That would completely defeat the purpose of including it in your primary four.

There are very, very few professions where english/communication skills won't be useful.

[matt123]

Why would you make it compulsory but not in the top 4? That would completely defeat the purpose of including it in your primary four.

There are very, very few professions where english/communication skills won't be useful.

I think english is a primary requirement for everything.
but I dont like it to be in the top 4.

for e.g
for me .. ive worked incredibly hard this year .. however .. even with all the effort i have put in .. im only averaging low 80% for sacs.

my friend however .. he loves reading books .. loves english .. dosnt do much work .. averages 95%.

I think it gives advantages to those who are talented with english overs those who hate it.

and so i think ultimately . it shouldn't have to be in our top 4....

look buddy .. im not asking to you to agree with me .. so you dont have to argue with me.

im just sharing my view.

[m@tty]

The whole point of English being in the top four is so the system does discriminate based on English ability.

[Russ]

I think it gives advantages to those who are talented with english overs those who hate it.

Yes, that's the reason it's like that. If you make it compulsory but not top 4, you'll get people ignoring the subject because they're not good at it and just taking an extra subject to compensate.

Either have it top four or not compulsory at all, don't go in between.

[iffets12345]

I like English being in the top four, every country has their national language on the curriculum. People who complain about English being in the top four are just self-motivated or personally stung because they aren't good at English. And if you feel offended by that statement, or want to refute it, then don't complain, cause why else would you? Only thing is, I do think maths should be in there too, like further as a minimum. Our national standard of maths is appalling.

[matt123]

I like English being in the top four, every country has their national language on the curriculum. People who complain about English being in the top four are just self-motivated or personally stung because they aren't good at English. And if you feel offended by that statement, or want to refute it, then don't complain, cause why else would you? Only thing is, I do think maths should be in there too, like further as a minimum. Our national standard of maths is appalling.

I agree do agree with you.

For me ... I speak persian at home and always have been. however i cannot do esl because i was born here.
thats all fair enough .... but my english isnt as good as it could be if i was to be speaking english all the time.
Thats why i dont like english ..... they are making me do a subject AND placing it in my top 4 .... and im not good at it .... ive been trying ridiculously hard all year .. and only slightly improving.

I think english is important .. but its a massive advantage to those who are already good at english.
think about it ... if maths was COMPULSORY in our top 4 ... all the dead shtz who cant add or subtract would be pissed off .. if they are STRONG in arts and humanity subjects .. it would be a massive disadvantage to them to have maths in the top 4.

if anything .. it should be .. one of science / maths / english in top 4 COMPULSORY.
now that would be more "fair" in my eyes .. as it would balance out the advantage/disadvantage

just an idea

[zomgSEAN]

It isn't the frequency of exams; it's the percentage proportion they contribute to my study score.

More assessment with less contribution doesn't decrease stress, it just lets you rationalise away bad marks.

And because i know i can rationalise away slip-ups, i will enter exams with less stress.

[studying_hard]

I don't think English should be necessarily in the top 4. It is more about natural talent than anything. You can spend 24/7 studying for English and still not get near to 100%. I think VCE should be more about hard work than natural talent and by having english compulsory in top 4 it makes an unfair advantage. I know someone who does barely any work for English so he can concentrate on other subjects he is not so good at and still gets over 90% in most SACs. I know someone else who is average at English and does a couple of hours a night for it and has not got over 80% for one SAC. Because of this it also gives the ones better at English more time to study for other subjects. Also people say that we need it because it is our national language, fair enough but what do we actually learn in VCE English that we can apply the real world? The answer is not much. When in the real world are we going to need to write an expository essay about AMFAS or write an essay about the imaginative landscape? Very rarely at most. If VCAA have it set in their mind that a subject should be compulsory then why not make it Business Mgt, Health and HD, Legal studies or Accounting? These are subjects yuor are likely to need in real life!
Rant over

[Chavi]

I don't think English should be necessarily in the top 4. It is more about natural talent than anything. You can spend 24/7 studying for English and still not get near to 100%. I think VCE should be more about hard work than natural talent and by having english compulsory in top 4 it makes an unfair advantage. I know someone who does barely any work for English so he can concentrate on other subjects he is not so good at and still gets over 90% in most SACs. I know someone else who is average at English and does a couple of hours a night for it and has not got over 80% for one SAC. Because of this it also gives the ones better at English more time to study for other subjects. Also people say that we need it because it is our national language, fair enough but what do we actually learn in VCE English that we can apply the real world? The answer is not much. When in the real world are we going to need to write an expository essay about AMFAS or write an essay about the imaginative landscape? Very rarely at most. If VCAA have it set in their mind that a subject should be compulsory then why not make it Business Mgt, Health and HD, Legal studies or Accounting? These are subjects yuor are likely to need in real life!
Rant over

When will you ever use complex numbers in your life (spec), depreciate your Non Current Assets (accounting), apply Lenz's law when connecting electronics (physics) or sketch standard normal distributions (methods). Arguably, *almost* all subjects are irrelevant to students unless you specialize in Uni.

A high standard in English however, is necessary in all fields of work and study (unless you move to the developing world). This is why it's in your top 4.

[studying_hard]

I don't think English should be necessarily in the top 4. It is more about natural talent than anything. You can spend 24/7 studying for English and still not get near to 100%. I think VCE should be more about hard work than natural talent and by having english compulsory in top 4 it makes an unfair advantage. I know someone who does barely any work for English so he can concentrate on other subjects he is not so good at and still gets over 90% in most SACs. I know someone else who is average at English and does a couple of hours a night for it and has not got over 80% for one SAC. Because of this it also gives the ones better at English more time to study for other subjects. Also people say that we need it because it is our national language, fair enough but what do we actually learn in VCE English that we can apply the real world? The answer is not much. When in the real world are we going to need to write an expository essay about AMFAS or write an essay about the imaginative landscape? Very rarely at most. If VCAA have it set in their mind that a subject should be compulsory then why not make it Business Mgt, Health and HD, Legal studies or Accounting? These are subjects yuor are likely to need in real life!
Rant over

When will you ever use complex numbers in your life (spec), depreciate your Non Current Assets (accounting), apply Lenz's law when connecting electronics (physics) or sketch standard normal distributions (methods). Arguably, *almost* all subjects are irrelevant to students unless you specialize in Uni.

A high standard in English however, is necessary in all fields of work and study (unless you move to the developing world). This is why it's in your top 4.

I didn't say that Spesh, Methods or Physics should be complulsory. I don't do accounting myself but I have heard it would more than useful in real life. I stick by the other subjects too

[bomb]

There are very, very few professions where english/communication skills won't be useful.

That's why specific courses have a study score you need to achieve for english. There must be better ways of judging communication skills than conflict pieces and analysing a play.

When will you ever use complex numbers in your life (spec), depreciate your Non Current Assets (accounting), apply Lenz's law when connecting electronics (physics) or sketch standard normal distributions (methods).

About the same time you have to read a book and answer a prompt using an essay, write a piece on a context and analyse a persuasive piece in 3 hours.

So if everyone has to go to the extent of knowing how to write about context/analyse texts, then everyone has to sketch normal distributions.

[TrueTears]

Since the topic is about whether vce is fair or not, having one compulsory subject definitely makes it fairer relative to some of the other systems out there which often have 4 or 5 compulsory subjects.

[matt123]

Since the topic is about whether vce is fair or not, having one compulsory subject definitely makes it fairer relative to some of the other systems out there which often have 4 or 5 compulsory subjects.

to be honest
in australia .. i cannot think of any programs which use 3-4?
maybe in countries like china etc.

but i mean
in canberra ... english isnt in the top 4.
in nsw .. i believe english is compulsory.
vic it is

and dunno bout the others.

[Chavi]

Perhaps English can be assessed differently, however the fact that English as a subject is compulsory for VCE should not be brought into question. I think there is a near-unanimous agreement that proper communication skills in English are of utmost importance in the classroom, the workplace and wider society.
There has to be a way for Unis and employers to gauge the level of english skills present in prospective employees/students - something that can't be done if some students choose to opt out of studying English for VCE.
Every other subject is highly course/requirement specific for each individual tert/employer, but English is inadvertently used everywhere - even if you don't decide to take a Law or Literature degree.