Is VCE fair?

[ben92]

I agree that the system is actually quite reasonable at the moment. But never fall into believing that something is "as fair as it could realistically hope to be". Not that what we say and think is going to have a huge impact on the future of VCE, but it is a very dangerous attitude to foster.
Complacency stagnates society.

If what you meant was we should always remain vigilant that these things really are the best possible then I agree, but I made that statement on the premise that was assured. If something can't realistically be improved, it's hardly stagnancy in my opinion to let it be.

[chrisjb]

Out there in the big non-vce world, you'd be hard pressed to find a system that is more fair than the vce.

[shinny]

SAC is unfair due to the favouratism of the teachers and the fact that SACs are easier than the exams, which means they cannot test the ability of the students. You might say.. "but you're competing against your cohort, and even if the SACs are easy, they still give a fair ranking according to your ability within your school."

No, exams are complete different things as they combine various topics together (possibly in one question) to test the students' knowledge.

The whole 'SACs are easier than exams' thing is debatable. Depends which school you go to really. And yes, SACs are often quite different from the structure of the exam, but they're purposefully done like that so other skills are developed in the course of the subject - not just the ability to do a written exam. For example, producing a film in media studies is something that is obviously necessary. I guess some of these aspects could be not formally assessed, but then people just won't try at all on them if they're not assessed and then their learning is impaired I guess.

Don't get me wrong - I suffer from its flaws too. I do History: Revolutions in which the average exam score is something like 45%. The subject scales up by one.

Actually raw exam scores have no bearing on scaling. Only the strength of the cohort in their other subjects does. Don't see how this is particularly a flaw. Using m@tty's race analogy, the subject you're doing could be likened to the length of race you're running. It doesn't matter about your raw time that you achieve in this race; just the number of people who you beat, and how good they are at their other races.

[matt123]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

+too many.
english should NOT be part of top 4, however, i think it's fair if it was compulsary top 4 for international students, at least those who don't speak much english - as they should know english if they are coming here, and not just take away all our top scores.

Agreed.

Also maybe need to review the requirements to do ESL. I know some people who are very capable with English, yet are able to still do ESL.

Flawed system.

theres a kid at my school who got 48 in ESL few years back .. did english the next year and took home a 49.

pretty stupid system in my eyes.

also ... a guy this year .. is probably the best at english in our school , yet  ,hes doing ESL.

[akira88]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

+too many.
english should NOT be part of top 4, however, i think it's fair if it was compulsary top 4 for international students, at least those who don't speak much english - as they should know english if they are coming here, and not just take away all our top scores.

Agreed.

Also maybe need to review the requirements to do ESL. I know some people who are very capable with English, yet are able to still do ESL.

Flawed system.

theres a kid at my school who got 48 in ESL few years back .. did english the next year and took home a 49.

pretty stupid system in my eyes.

also ... a guy this year .. is probably the best at english in our school , yet  ,hes doing ESL.

How is that stupid? Perhaps the "kid" was very competent at writing essays and enjoyed English languages. Do you think it's stupid for someone who goes well in specialist maths to do further maths?
And would anyone know what the "requirements" are for ESL? I tried to search for it on the VCAA website but couldn't find anything...

[ben92]

Actually raw exam scores have no bearing on scaling. Only the strength of the cohort in their other subjects does. Don't see how this is particularly a flaw. Using m@tty's race analogy, the subject you're doing could be likened to the length of race you're running. It doesn't matter about your raw time that you achieve in this race; just the number of people who you beat, and how good they are at their other races.

I know scaling isn't based off raw scores - that was actually my entire point. Ask anyone doing Revs and they'll tell you it's a ball-breaker. Don't you think it's a 'flaw' that it only scales by 1? Don't you think it's a flaw that the extra hours required aren't being properly compensated?

[TrueTears]

Also less corruption and 'cheating' in certain subjects in VCE would probably make it fairer, but it is a very good system relatively to many others out there... (look at China's secondary education system and you'll understand)

[matt123]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

+too many.
english should NOT be part of top 4, however, i think it's fair if it was compulsary top 4 for international students, at least those who don't speak much english - as they should know english if they are coming here, and not just take away all our top scores.

Agreed.

Also maybe need to review the requirements to do ESL. I know some people who are very capable with English, yet are able to still do ESL.

Flawed system.

theres a kid at my school who got 48 in ESL few years back .. did english the next year and took home a 49.

pretty stupid system in my eyes.

also ... a guy this year .. is probably the best at english in our school , yet  ,hes doing ESL.

How is that stupid? Perhaps the "kid" was very competent at writing essays and enjoyed English languages. Do you think it's stupid for someone who goes well in specialist maths to do further maths?
And would anyone know what the "requirements" are for ESL? I tried to search for it on the VCAA website but couldn't find anything...

Requirements are .... must NOT be living in australia for more than 7 years i believe?.
and obviously come from a non english speaking backround.
also .. if its close to 7 years .. e.g 6 or so ... you have to do a "pre test".

also
I think its stupid , because people like him are completely abusing the system.
he came to Australia and has been here for 6 years at the time of when he did ESL.
however , in India . his main language was English. he spoke English at home , and at school.
his English was 10X better than his Hindi..... completely competent , fluent and pretty much , an amazing writer.

He SHOULD NOT be allowed to do ESL... although , all it takes is to say " im from india , my english is bad" , fake a pretest , and away you go.

I know of many , not just at my school but also at others who are abusing the system.
Esl wasnt made like further and specialist ... ESL was made for students are having trouble with English because its their SECOND language ... that generally means , their first language is obviously better than their english.

[vea]

Actually raw exam scores have no bearing on scaling. Only the strength of the cohort in their other subjects does. Don't see how this is particularly a flaw. Using m@tty's race analogy, the subject you're doing could be likened to the length of race you're running. It doesn't matter about your raw time that you achieve in this race; just the number of people who you beat, and how good they are at their other races.

I know scaling isn't based off raw scores - that was actually my entire point. Ask anyone doing Revs and they'll tell you it's a ball-breaker. Don't you think it's a 'flaw' that it only scales by 1? Don't you think it's a flaw that the extra hours required aren't being properly compensated?

This is true. If all the smart people that normally do the asian subjects all suddenly decided to do a subject, it is likely that that subject will have higher scaling from the intense competition caused.

[letsride]

Also less corruption and 'cheating' in certain subjects in VCE would probably make it fairer, but it is a very good system relatively to many others out there... (look at China's secondary education system and you'll understand)

can you explain what China's secondary education system is like? pretty interested to find out

[TrueTears]

It is WAY more confined than VCE, if you think having English as a compulsory subject is bad enough, in China, Chinese, Mathematics and English are all compulsory. Also from what my parents have told me, there are subjects which you MUST study even if you don't get examined them on in "Gao Kao" (basically the Chinese equivalent of VCAA exams), these include Chinese history, literature etc. VCE is much less constrained than the Chinese secondary education system, you can pick subjects to your own liking and whatever suits your taste (except for the compulsory subject English). In China you don't get this freedom, your education is already set out for you, the majority of all the subjects you do are all compulsory, so if you are bad at those subjects then bad luck.

In other words, unless you go to a technical school, ie, a specialised school for sports, music or whatever, you will be doing the EXACT same subjects as the rest of all the secondary school kids. So if mathematics ain't your strong point you have no choice but to get beaten by many other students.

[ben92]

I should add there's even choice in English here - you can do Literature, English Language or ESL under certain conditions.

[letsride]

It is WAY more confined than VCE, if you think having English as a compulsory subject is bad enough, in China, Chinese, Mathematics and English are all compulsory. Also from what my parents have told me, there are subjects which you MUST study even if you don't get examined them on in "Gao Kao" (basically the Chinese equivalent of VCAA exams), these include Chinese history, literature etc. VCE is much less constrained than the Chinese secondary education system, you can pick subjects to your own liking and whatever suits your taste (except for the compulsory subject English). In China you don't get this freedom, your education is already set out for you, the majority of all the subjects you do are all compulsory, so if you are bad at those subjects then bad luck.

very similar to my home country, dunno how it is now though since communism died, however when my parents completed secondary school, everybody did the same subjects => math,physics,chemistry,biology,literature,history,own language of what i know.

[TrueTears]

It is WAY more confined than VCE, if you think having English as a compulsory subject is bad enough, in China, Chinese, Mathematics and English are all compulsory. Also from what my parents have told me, there are subjects which you MUST study even if you don't get examined them on in "Gao Kao" (basically the Chinese equivalent of VCAA exams), these include Chinese history, literature etc. VCE is much less constrained than the Chinese secondary education system, you can pick subjects to your own liking and whatever suits your taste (except for the compulsory subject English). In China you don't get this freedom, your education is already set out for you, the majority of all the subjects you do are all compulsory, so if you are bad at those subjects then bad luck.

very similar to my home country, dunno how it is now though since communism died, however when my parents completed secondary school, everybody did the same subjects => math,physics,chemistry,biology,literature,history,own language of what i know.

Yup I just edited my above post, so yeah everyone basically does the same subjects... you don't have a choice in what you want to do, at least in VCE you can pick the subjects which you are interested in bar one compulsory subject, I think that already makes a very good system.

[letsride]

It is WAY more confined than VCE, if you think having English as a compulsory subject is bad enough, in China, Chinese, Mathematics and English are all compulsory. Also from what my parents have told me, there are subjects which you MUST study even if you don't get examined them on in "Gao Kao" (basically the Chinese equivalent of VCAA exams), these include Chinese history, literature etc. VCE is much less constrained than the Chinese secondary education system, you can pick subjects to your own liking and whatever suits your taste (except for the compulsory subject English). In China you don't get this freedom, your education is already set out for you, the majority of all the subjects you do are all compulsory, so if you are bad at those subjects then bad luck.

very similar to my home country, dunno how it is now though since communism died, however when my parents completed secondary school, everybody did the same subjects => math,physics,chemistry,biology,literature,history,own language of what i know.

Yup I just edited my above post, so yeah everyone basically does the same subjects... you don't have a choice in what you want to do, at least in VCE you can pick the subjects which you are interested in bar one compulsory subject, I think that already makes a very good system.

China and Russia pretty much have the same schooling =P