Is VCE fair?

[AcademyPlus]

Hey guys, this will make a worthwhile discussion - feel free to post your views in the comment sections... I am stirring again no doubt, but it would be great to hear how you would change/not change the VCE systems as students!

Thanks

http://vcetuition.com.au/is-vce-fair

[shinny]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

[cypriottiger]

i think the sac ranking aspect of it should be abolished. i mean right now im going to be punished for a bad year of methods, despite studying like crazy for the exams

[vexx]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

+too many.
english should NOT be part of top 4, however, i think it's fair if it was compulsary top 4 for international students, at least those who don't speak much english - as they should know english if they are coming here, and not just take away all our top scores.

[andy456]

i think the sac ranking aspect of it should be abolished. i mean right now im going to be punished for a bad year of methods, despite studying like crazy for the exams

I would have to disagree with you there. I believe the SAC ranking system is fair. In this way people from disadvantaged schools are not demolished when scores are made.

[Visionz]

Nothing is fair. At least VCE tries to be fair.

[7132]

VCE is so not fair, if u do crap throughout the year and ace exams u should be getting high 40s but SACS will make u get like 30s

[studying_hard]

yes and no.  the thing that should be changed is the amount of scaling.some subjects are harder than others but becuase it is about ranking scaling should not come into effect

[darkphoenix]

I think it's about as fair as can be. Any system has its flaws, but the VCE one is actually quite solid compared to what happens in uni, graduate course selection and so on. The only change I might make is to keep some form of English compulsory, but not compulsory in the top 4 in the ATAR calculation. Then the courses that need good English can just adjust their pre-reqs accordingly, but the majority that don't no longer have English as a major barrier to entry.

+too many.
english should NOT be part of top 4, however, i think it's fair if it was compulsary top 4 for international students, at least those who don't speak much english - as they should know english if they are coming here, and not just take away all our top scores.

Agreed.

Also maybe need to review the requirements to do ESL. I know some people who are very capable with English, yet are able to still do ESL.

Flawed system.

[chrisjb]

Also maybe need to review the requirements to do ESL. I know some people who are very capable with English, yet are able to still do ESL.

Flawed system.

There's a kid in my literature class who could be doing ESL if he wanted, and he is a very good english student... But it's difficult to decide who can and can't do ESL- where do you draw the line?

[mojomojo]

SAC is unfair due to the favouratism of the teachers and the fact that SACs are easier than the exams, which means they cannot test the ability of the students. You might say.. "but you're competing against your cohort, and even if the SACs are easy, they still give a fair ranking according to your ability within your school."

No, exams are complete different things as they combine various topics together (possibly in one question) to test the students' knowledge.


And also, English should not be the top 4. Maybe they should make a minimum study score for English in order to pass VCE, but English is not a subject that you can do well even if you study 10 hours a day. It's a subject to drag down the foreigners that are leaning towards maths and sciences.

[m@tty]

yes and no.  the thing that should be changed is the amount of scaling.some subjects are harder than others but becuase it is about ranking scaling should not come into effect

Erroneous assumption.

This has been discussed many-a-time here on VN, but I'm assuming you haven't seen any of these.

Scaling is employed to make the ranking system fair.

A worthy analogy:
If you come second in a footrace against some friends,
should that be counted the same as coming second in the Olympics?

It is the same deal with scaling, they determine the level of competition within the subject (by comparing the scores students obtained in the study compared to their other studies) and scale the results accordingly.

[ben92]

I know it's 'cool' to always rail against the 'establishment' and home in on its flaws, but I think VCE is about as fair as it could realistically hope to be. Let me refer to some examples of VCE's 'unfairness' here:

1. People capable of doing English or Literature are doing ESL.

This isn't really a fault of VCE, but rather civilisation's technical inability to derive someone's competency in language. We can't test students on this competency either as they'd just intentionally fail that test to enter into ESL.

2. VCE isn't fair because it punishes people who do poorly on SACs.

How is it unfair that students who don't work get a lower mark than those who do? SACs can be drastically scaled up if you really improve anyway.

3. The impact of English is too great on one's ATAR.

I partially agree. I don't know about you, but I want the surgeon operating on my nuts to be a fluent English speaker. I do admit however doing well in English is about far more than just speaking the language itself fluently, and that Science/Maths-minded students unduly must put in much more effort into this subject than Humanities-minded students.

4. SACs depend on favouritism of teachers

That's a fault of human nature, not the wider VCE system.

In summary, VCE isn't perfect, but to one-mindedly rail against it because you don't like it is an immature response to that fact. We shouldn't forget that our complaints, it seems to me, are mostly petty and centre on maybe one or two subjects and nuances in the scaling system. In the grand scheme of things, it leaves VCE a rather effective system albeit an imperfect one.

Don't get me wrong - I suffer from its flaws too. I do History: Revolutions in which the average exam score is something like 45%. The subject scales up by one.

[m@tty]

With 4. it is a fault in the system.

Though there is some kind of accountability at least, with cross-marking and audits.

The problem is not where issues originate or who's to blame. Rather, the presence of these faults IS the problem.

Whether we look to new methods or attempt to improve the current ones, a fault is a fault, and they must be addressed if any improvement is to come.

I agree that the system is actually quite reasonable at the moment. But never fall into believing that something is "as fair as it could realistically hope to be". Not that what we say and think is going to have a huge impact on the future of VCE, but it is a very dangerous attitude to foster.
Complacency stagnates society.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

At least we're not like Queensland lol. Their whole system is based on how their internals scale.