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July 07, 2025, 03:18:50 am

Author Topic: Is VCE fair?  (Read 33934 times)  Share 

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vea

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2010, 09:01:59 pm »
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It is WAY more confined than VCE, if you think having English as a compulsory subject is bad enough, in China, Chinese, Mathematics and English are all compulsory. Also from what my parents have told me, there are subjects which you MUST study even if you don't get examined them on in "Gao Kao" (basically the Chinese equivalent of VCAA exams), these include Chinese history, literature etc. VCE is much less constrained than the Chinese secondary education system, you can pick subjects to your own liking and whatever suits your taste (except for the compulsory subject English). In China you don't get this freedom, your education is already set out for you, the majority of all the subjects you do are all compulsory, so if you are bad at those subjects then bad luck.

In other words, unless you go to a technical school, ie, a specialised school for sports, music or whatever, you will be doing the EXACT same subjects as the rest of all the secondary school kids. So if mathematics ain't your strong point you have no choice but to get beaten by many other students.

To add to this, every student in the WHOLE country use the exact same textbooks which are made by some government body. (so I hear from my mum)
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TrueTears

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2010, 09:03:32 pm »
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Yup, I still have all of the Chinese secondary mathematics textbooks, they were used by my dad when he was in school and they are STILL using them (although some stuff are changed but the general parts are still the same).

I admit though, they are of a MUCH higher standard than Australian secondary education (for mathematics) which probably makes it worse for those students who dislike mathematics but are forced to do it.
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letsride

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 09:06:04 pm »
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however it's no stereotype that the majority of chinese students would excel in australian schooling, which just shows the level these two countries are at. Therefore the government is obviously doing something right to produce so many bright kids.

shinny

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 09:07:34 pm »
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Actually raw exam scores have no bearing on scaling. Only the strength of the cohort in their other subjects does. Don't see how this is particularly a flaw. Using m@tty's race analogy, the subject you're doing could be likened to the length of race you're running. It doesn't matter about your raw time that you achieve in this race; just the number of people who you beat, and how good they are at their other races.

I know scaling isn't based off raw scores - that was actually my entire point. Ask anyone doing Revs and they'll tell you it's a ball-breaker. Don't you think it's a 'flaw' that it only scales by 1? Don't you think it's a flaw that the extra hours required aren't being properly compensated?

I don't see the relevance of pointing out the average exam percentage then. But anyway, many of the art subjects like viscomm and so on require long hours yet get scaled down even. Point is, long hours doesn't mean anything. One thing people commonly argue is unfair is this notion of people spending long hours and not being rewarded. While it is something that would be ideal in a fair world, VCE is a case of finding the smartest and hours spent isn't necessarily proportional to 'intelligence' (I use this term warily since I wouldn't say VCE really measures this). They're finding the best people for the job really. So in this regard, even if these people spent ages on Revs, they're apparently not doing that well in their other subjects, hence explaining the low amount scaled. Going back to the race analogy once again (credits to m@tty for it - finding it so useful :P), it's like having an event that people do a crap load of training in to do well in, but when they go to any other event, they suck. So in a case where you're picking the best runners, who would you give more credit to? And yeh, I know that you can't compare running events like this. No one really does both sprinting and long distance and there is no 'standard' best runner. This is ultimately what I see as the flaw in VCE. Proficiency at different events can be likened to the different intelligences, and I don't see how someone who chooses a heap of art subjects and does well at them is more suitable to be doing a science degree than someone who did half decent in a range of science subjects. So in this sense, I don't see how you can scale subjects against one another - because you're effectively saying that someone's artistical intelligence is worth less because they're not as good in a scientific sense. They're totally different things, and if you chucked the science students who scored 50 actually into arts subjects, then they'd be pretty screwed. However, the VCE system seems to imply that they'd expect them to score 50 (well, even higher if it were possible given that arts scales down and science tends to scale up).

However, it's the only way to keep with VCAA's aim to allow people to get into almost any course doing almost any combination of subjects. I don't see it as being particularly productive but I guess people are often quite indecisive and don't want to be locked in. I just think that if they did force people to think about their future earlier, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. It's just that now people don't really have much pressure to think about it until VTAC preferences are due that we're having this problem of people being uncertain about what course they actually want to do and deciding last minute.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 09:10:19 pm by shinny »
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2010, 09:11:53 pm »
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I don't feel that one 2 hour examination is a fair assessment of my skills and knowledge in a subject. To be tested on one occasion, for a few hours, for something you have been learning for MONTHS, is entirely unfair in my mind. Not only does it limit the amount of content that can be tested to a very small portion of the study design, it is a situation which can be ruined by the unfortunate chance you are having a bad day.

My academic potential should not be measured by a few, short examinations. It is not a true reflection of my abilities.

We need more external examinations throughout the year.
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shinny

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2010, 09:13:24 pm »
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I don't feel that one 2 hour examination is a fair assessment of my skills and knowledge in a subject. To be tested on one occasion, for a few hours, for something you have been learning for MONTHS, is entirely unfair in my mind. Not only does it limit the amount of content that can be tested to a very small portion of the study design, it is a situation which can be ruined by the unfortunate chance you are having a bad day.

My academic potential should not be measured by a few, short examinations. It is not a true reflection of my abilities.

We need more external examinations throughout the year.

True. The more content you examine, the more accurate the final result is going to be in ranking students. Quite simple. However, it's just a logistical and financial nightmare for VCAA really. It all comes back to this really =S
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2010, 09:15:45 pm »
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Saving time and pennies at the cost of unfair assessment, it seems.
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TrueTears

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2010, 09:27:22 pm »
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Welcome to reality I guess :)
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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2010, 09:29:08 pm »
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The scaling is a bit too extreme thats what I think. If you took 1/3 of the scaling off each subject then it would be much fairer. Apart from that VCE is pretty fair
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ben92

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2010, 09:35:18 pm »
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Shinny I'd love to debate you about whether VCE is about intelligence or knowledge (you seem to be equally unsure - "I use this term warily" etc) but I think this was beside the original point I made in this thread. Furthermore such a debate is beyond the scope of VCE, as difficulty is an immeasurable, subjective emotion rather than an institutional function with a clear-cut purpose which either works or not.

What I argued was that while VCE undoubtedly has some flaws, it can't realistically get a lot better. That note about me 'suffering' from Revs I made lest someone level the accusation that I wasn't that critical of VCE because the subjects I was studying were favourable to me personally, or that I didn't care about their sense of injustice.

That's not to say I was 'lying' about Revs being difficult yet under-rewarded, but it wasn't my intention to start up a debate about assessing the difficulty of subjects. It's probably my fault due to my prior post (07:34:38 PM) that you might think I intended to.

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littlebecc

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2010, 09:37:12 pm »
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Quote
I don't feel that one 2 hour examination is a fair assessment of my skills and knowledge in a subject. To be tested on one occasion, for a few hours, for something you have been learning for MONTHS, is entirely unfair in my mind. Not only does it limit the amount of content that can be tested to a very small portion of the study design, it is a situation which can be ruined by the unfortunate chance you are having a bad day.

My academic potential should not be measured by a few, short examinations. It is not a true reflection of my abilities.

We need more external examinations throughout the year.

I couldn't agree more.

matt123

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2010, 09:38:02 pm »
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Quote
I don't feel that one 2 hour examination is a fair assessment of my skills and knowledge in a subject. To be tested on one occasion, for a few hours, for something you have been learning for MONTHS, is entirely unfair in my mind. Not only does it limit the amount of content that can be tested to a very small portion of the study design, it is a situation which can be ruined by the unfortunate chance you are having a bad day.

My academic potential should not be measured by a few, short examinations. It is not a true reflection of my abilities.

We need more external examinations throughout the year.

I couldn't agree more.

i couldn't agree more to agree more
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kyzoo

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2010, 11:38:40 pm »
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I don't feel that one 2 hour examination is a fair assessment of my skills and knowledge in a subject. To be tested on one occasion, for a few hours, for something you have been learning for MONTHS, is entirely unfair in my mind. Not only does it limit the amount of content that can be tested to a very small portion of the study design, it is a situation which can be ruined by the unfortunate chance you are having a bad day.

My academic potential should not be measured by a few, short examinations. It is not a true reflection of my abilities.

We need more external examinations throughout the year.

But the thing is...that would mean 9358901580135x more stress and people would be discouraged much more easily. Let's take a subject like Methods which has its exam in one period at the end of the year. Before this period people who have screwed up their SACs will be like "I'm going to whip the exams" and they are thereby encouraged to try. Yet for something like Chem for a midyear and an end-of-year, some people will be discouraged at their lacklustre performance on the midyears and are then discouraged to work on that subject for the rest of the year. It's a generalization, I know.

And the only thing I really want is to have an exam where you have ~3 hours to solve maybe 4-5 absurdly hard maths/science problems. I really don't like the fact that I can immediately perceive how to do 95% of exam questions that I see.
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mojomojo

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2010, 03:28:32 am »
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In my personal opinion, rather than testing the students' intelligence, VCE is more about testing how hard the students work. But then I guess it's not a bad thing to reward the hard working students, "hard-working" could be an indicator to future success.
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Nomvalt

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Re: Is VCE fair?
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2010, 03:46:02 am »
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I think the 80% class attendance or you fail rule is a bit unfair. Even though this is a requirement for every student I don't see the point of going to school if you are proficient with all the concepts covered (at least when you are going through the basics in class) or are more of an independent learner and would like to go through things at your own pace.