Is VCE fair?

[tram]

There's no reason to have it compulsory but not top4. Then you'll just get people picking an extra subject and ignoring english completely. It's either important enough to be included in your mark or it's not, don't go in between.

Dont think serious ppl will ignore it when its still a pre-req to get into Uni.

I agree with m@tty. Maths should be compulsory as well.

This is perfectely true, the need for eng to be a prereq means that people will have to be competen in english, but it won't overly restrict someone getting into say an engineering course where there is less need for english and good scores in maths and sciency subject are a much better indicator of their ability, hence they can still get a good enter by playing to their strengths.

As for the maths point, i compeltely agree. Maths is an essential part of life and while i agree that say vector spaces and number theory are not particualrly important in day to day life for 99.9999999% of people, my impression of further was that it largely was 'useful' maths (please correct me if i'm wrong).

At least one form of maths should be complusory (further itself should not be arbitarily compulsory as if people want to do uni maths doing four maths is obviosuly redundant)

Also masonnnn brings up a very good point in that the top end of further is extremely competitive. This is cos so many people who are extremely capble at maths chose to do it for an 'easy' high 40 SS. I think there should be a rule that if you do further, you can't do any other maths subjects to counteract this problem. Obviosuly the scaling would have to change to accomodate this alteration. I jsut don't think it's fair nor the point of having furher that people who do spech (or have the ability to do spech but chose to do futher instead) can do futher. It's not helping the students that genuinely do further because it just makes the top end ridicuously competive and it dosn't help the student doing futher for a high score as they are not extending themelves. Futher has a place in VCE but in teh current system, it is simpely being abused.

There's no reason to have it compulsory but not top4. Then you'll just get people picking an extra subject and ignoring english completely. It's either important enough to be included in your mark or it's not, don't go in between.

Dont think serious ppl will ignore it when its still a pre-req to get into Uni.

I agree with m@tty. Maths should be compulsory as well.

The prereq for a lot of courses is what...25?

yeah true.... then mabey the prereq requirement should go up to 35 for the courses that really do need good writing skills, but you cant tell me that 40 in eng is going to be absolutely necessary for a pure maths major right? As is, people who perhaps are intending to do a course that uses little english should not ahve their atars restricted by english when it is 'useless'


oh and excuse my ignorance but what's EE/TOK??

[EvangelionZeta]

No, don't make Further compulsory; rather, at least one mathematics sequence should be completed by all students.

Though I'm sure that's what you meant anyway.

yea, but can u imagine the backlash i'd get if I said MAKE SPECIALIST compulsory ?
I just said further since it's considered the "easiest" for many. Like a base component. but yea, if you do a harder maths, no need to I guess.


Maths is important as well as literacy. Saves all those times you grumble over who pays the bill

I know many extremely intelligent people who exceed in english/drama and arts, yet fail miserably at any mathematics, if a large majority of people don't require or hold an interest in maths why would that be made compulsory. english fair enough, we're an english speaking nation... but maths is not essential. Personally because of the competition at higher levels i regret doing further maths, if you ask me it's methods(because it's a prereq) or just unnecessary.

I can't believe you just said maths is not essential. I personally find it embarrasing that some people I know think I'm amazing because I can add 180+270+360 off the top of my head.

The way I see it
people who suck at english complain that it shouldnt be in the top four
people who suck at maths complain that it shouldn't be in the top four.
We are all arguing because we want to protect our VCE scores and we don't want them to get affected by something compulsory. Well, tell that to IB where everyone has to do an EE and TOK.

And if you don't want maths in the top four, then the government needs to improve the standard of maths in the lower year levels.  

I agree with people saying VCE-level maths is not essential - I believe maths should be compulsary up until year 10 (and perhaps improve the standard in the lower years...), but after that it's about as applicable to most people as an air conditioner is to an arctic home.  As Glockmeister said, pretty much any degree/career you encounter will have some writing (and analytical writing) component - in contrast, outside of Science and Commerce, maths is used very little.

As for the maths point, i compeltely agree. Maths is an essential part of life and while i agree that say vector spaces and number theory are not particualrly important in day to day life for 99.9999999% of people, my impression of further was that it largely was 'useful' maths (please correct me if i'm wrong).

The problem is, as far as I can tell, most of the stuff they teach in Further (and somebody should confirm this for me, since I don't actually DO Further) is about the same as year 10 level maths - effectively, you're wasting two years of education by not really learning anything.

[m@tty]

I know many extremely intelligent people who exceed in english/drama and arts, yet fail miserably at any mathematics, if a large majority of people don't require or hold an interest in maths why would that be made compulsory. english fair enough, we're an english speaking nation... but maths is not essential. Personally because of the competition at higher levels i regret doing further maths, if you ask me it's methods(because it's a prereq) or just unnecessary.

English - confined to only some parts of the world. Only 500 million–1.8 billion speakers (link -wiki). Being proficient in English will only get you so far; the majority of the world doesn't understand it.

On the other hand maths is uniform across the globe, so in that respect mathematics is indeed of greater importance as it is more prevalent.

Though more importantly - and this is also the main reason that English is compulsory - maths teaches crucial logic skills and provides experience in the application of knowledge. Just as text responses and language analysises do not directly benefit students, the actual questions involved in VCE mathematics is irrelevant. It is the mental skills developed through mathematics which are vital for success in any venture which justifies a compulsory maths subject - I'd argue that it is almost as important as English.

On top of that it helps people with basic arithmetic and data analysis - stuff that is required in many day-to-day situations.

And I can't believe you used the argument that it would disadvantage natural English students who have a feableness in mathematics; that is exactly what many many people have said about english being compulsory, and most pro-english people simply say "suck it up". So, I beseech you and all of your mathematically defunct friends to suck it up.

[iffets12345]

but the problem is, majority of kids don't really pay attention in year 10. You're only considering people who are hardworkers like yourself.

- this was to EZ's arugment.

[2317]

There's no reason to have it compulsory but not top4. Then you'll just get people picking an extra subject and ignoring english completely. It's either important enough to be included in your mark or it's not, don't go in between.

Dont think serious ppl will ignore it when its still a pre-req to get into Uni.

I agree with m@tty. Maths should be compulsory as well.

The prereq for a lot of courses is what...25?

but mind you there are already heaaps of ppl that dont try in english anyway.
the top students will always get top marks.
Ur right but maybe uni could increase pre-req.? to like 30? 30 i reckon is proficient enough to get by in this country.

Also i reckon they should replace the text response section with oral exam. I can see the relevance of an oral component to the exam much more than a text response. this will also minimize direct memorization. I mean by the time you actually write a text response in exam ur pretty much writing what you already have before. Context is similar but i think it helps you understand the world more. so keep it. and lang analysis is beneficial in many parts of life. so keep it.

[ninwa]

On the other hand maths is uniform across the globe, so in that respect mathematics is indeed of greater importance as it is more prevalent.

By that logic, the language of music is also uniform across the globe. Let's make that compulsory too.

Re: usefulness after VCE - pretty much the only time I've used maths after VCE was in my tax return, and there's calculators (and e-tax!) for that.

[shinny]

There's no reason to have it compulsory but not top4. Then you'll just get people picking an extra subject and ignoring english completely. It's either important enough to be included in your mark or it's not, don't go in between.

Dont think serious ppl will ignore it when its still a pre-req to get into Uni.

I agree with m@tty. Maths should be compulsory as well.

The prereq for a lot of courses is what...25?

but mind you there are already heaaps of ppl that dont try in english anyway.
the top students will always get top marks.
Ur right but maybe uni could increase pre-req.? to like 30? 30 i reckon is proficient enough to get by in this country.

Also i reckon they should replace the text response section with oral exam. I can see the relevance of an oral component to the exam much more than a text response. this will also minimize direct memorization. I mean by the time you actually write a text response in exam ur pretty much writing what you already have before. Context is similar but i think it helps you understand the world more. so keep it. and lang analysis is beneficial in many parts of life. so keep it.

I think VCAA would have liked an oral (as you can see in their inclusion in all other languages) but its just logistically impossible to run oral exams for almost every student in the state. Hence, an oral is only a SAC requirement. As for the logic argument, I think English actually promotes the important aspects of it better than Maths. Maths focuses purely on rational reasoning, but English takes a broader approach to logical reasoning by developing argumentative skills. For example, both language analysis and text response are marked mostly based on how well you develop your argument and the reasoning behind it. This type of 'qualitative' reasoning is far more important in the real world than quantitative reasoning I believe. We aren't meant to be simple rational creatures that decide all our life's decisions based purely on numbers; we need the capability to think outside the box and take into consideration other factors that can't just be measured in numbers. Similarly, the ability to be able to logically build up an argument and convince others is just as important in the real world in almost any field. And yes, I haven't really found much of a use for Maths ever since leaving high school. I can't add for crap anymore either - calculator FTW.

[TrueTears]

in contrast, outside of Science and Commerce, maths is used very little.

Actually it's used in many other courses at uni, albeit less than in science but still used (at a quite high level too), these include engineering, chemical engineering, biology, psychology, architecture, information technology, computer science etc so it's a pretty damn important skill to have unless you're doing arts (which I suspect has little or no maths at all, not sure though)

[2317]

You need maths even if you work at maccas....

[EvangelionZeta]

I know many extremely intelligent people who exceed in english/drama and arts, yet fail miserably at any mathematics, if a large majority of people don't require or hold an interest in maths why would that be made compulsory. english fair enough, we're an english speaking nation... but maths is not essential. Personally because of the competition at higher levels i regret doing further maths, if you ask me it's methods(because it's a prereq) or just unnecessary.

English - confined to only some parts of the world. Only 500 million–1.8 billion speakers (link -wiki). Being proficient in English will only get you so far; the majority of the world doesn't understand it.

On the other hand maths is uniform across the globe, so in that respect mathematics is indeed of greater importance as it is more prevalent.

Though more importantly - and this is also the main reason that English is compulsory - maths teaches crucial logic skills and provides experience in the application of knowledge. Just as text responses and language analysises do not directly benefit students, the actual questions involved in VCE mathematics is irrelevant. It is the mental skills developed through mathematics which are vital for success in any venture which justifies a compulsory maths subject - I'd argue that it is almost as important as English.

On top of that it helps people with basic arithmetic and data analysis - stuff that is required in many day-to-day situations.

And I can't believe you used the argument that it would disadvantage natural English students who have a feableness in mathematics; that is exactly what many many people have said about english being compulsory, and most pro-english people simply say "suck it up". So, I beseech you and all of your mathematically defunct friends to suck it up.

1. Ninwa's argument - your position re: maths being universal becomes absurd when you consider other things which are "universal", plus the purpose of the VCE is to decide how much an AUSTRALIAN university wants you.

2. Agreed that maths is important in terms of rational thinking and so forth, but the problem is, having a "compulsary" maths component isn't going to necessarily encourage this if the majority of the state just does Further as a result.  Basic arithmetic and data analysis is in year 1-10.  And also, Shinny's argument about English promoting logic in its own right.

but the problem is, majority of kids don't really pay attention in year 10. You're only considering people who are hardworkers like yourself.

Even the most apathetic student who doesn't just ditch school altogether is going to pick up the fundamentals (basic arithmetic) necessary for life by that point.

Also i reckon they should replace the text response section with oral exam. I can see the relevance of an oral component to the exam much more than a text response. this will also minimize direct memorization. I mean by the time you actually write a text response in exam ur pretty much writing what you already have before. Context is similar but i think it helps you understand the world more. so keep it. and lang analysis is beneficial in many parts of life. so keep it.

This will be borderline philosophy, but I think the reason we still maintain text response is because of the significance of understanding "art" - in being able to appreciate our own literary culture, society flourishes.    I also think putting an oral component into the exam also puts slightly more "unfairness" into the system - just as how background speakers get l33t h4x in LOTEs, kids who study drama or who are just naturally extraverted are going to have a much, much easier time than the introverts of the state.  Having it as a SAC is good though, since it means it still matters, but just not to an almost unfair amount.

Actually it's used in many other courses at uni, albeit less than in science but still used (at a quite high level too), these include engineering, chemical engineering, biology, psychology, architecture, information technology, computer science etc so it's a pretty damn important skill to have unless you're doing arts (which I suspect has little or no maths at all, not sure though)

Every discipline you just listed was pretty much a branch of Science (except possibly Architecture, which has a maths requirement anyway IIRC), just putting it out there.  You're also forgetting that the proportion of students doing Arts is fairly massive...  

You need maths even if you work at maccas....

Yes, grade 5 maths.  Unless I'm completely off and the counter people are constantly trying to work out the time at which the fries warm up with respect to time or something.  >.>

[2317]

Yeh they have to find pr(Golden Fries|Last fries were burnt) and take fries out when they are most likely to be golden brown.

[TrueTears]

Science as in what? General science? I said uni courses specifically, and engineering or computer science is definitely not grouped under Science, they are stand alone courses.

[EvangelionZeta]

Science as in what? General science? I said uni courses specifically, and engineering or computer science is definitely not grouped under Science, they are stand alone courses.

General science courses - I should have been clearer, but I'm thinking more along the lines of American/Melbourne Model style courses than the vocationally-specific ones we tend to have over here.

[TrueTears]

Ahhh okay, I thought you meant Science, as in the university course science.

[tram]

i hate to attentionwhore, but i'm genuinely interested in what people think about my suggestion:

Also masonnnn brings up a very good point in that the top end of further is extremely competitive. This is cos so many people who are extremely capble at maths chose to do it for an 'easy' high 40 SS. I think there should be a rule that if you do further, you can't do any other maths subjects to counteract this problem. Obviosuly the scaling would have to change to accomodate this alteration. I just don't think it's fair nor the point of having furher that people who do spech (or have the ability to do spech but chose to do futher instead) can do futher. It's not helping the students that genuinely do further because it just makes the top end ridicuously competive and it dosn't help the student doing futher for a high score as they are not extending themelves. Futher has a place in VCE but in the current system, it is simpely being abused.

Also at the risk of sounding like an idiot again: what's tok?? i gather it's soemthing to do with extra curriculars and is a component of IB?