Re: The Water Cooler has been moved to the National forum.

[echenzi]

Yes, everything is good now.  We've established from ages ago that some people (even admins and mods, gasp!) on this forum can be quite vocal or aggressive in their debating style.  We've also established that a lot of people have a variety of beliefs on VCENotes/ATARNotes members and staff in general.  Interesting, but completely off-topic - if someone really wants to talk about this or feels like they have something new and profound to contribute, maybe make a new thread!

Shall we return back to the topic at hand? Yay peace and love!  =)

@ the debating styles, should include rather offensive debating styles + mocking opposition should be included

[MuggedByReality]

 Lol, it did seem a little incongruous -this non-topic having garnered >5 pages of responses. But then, this is VN

[DavidB3ck]

Lmao.

[taiga]

I thought it was a great idea...

I don't see why water cooler discussion is related to VCE specifically. + it'll make conversations alot better (more people) once everything has been established

and werdna, his board is pretty dead atm. It comes alive during the vce year, it's alright for him to say that he's got close to no responsibility at this stage.

[pi]

Bad idea, I don't want NSW views in The Ashes thread, they have too many people in the team already and now the Aussie team suck!

[burbs]

Bad idea, I don't want NSW views in The Ashes thread, they have too many people in the team already and now the Aussie team suck!

Wow.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[Eriny]

You are being lazy. You are being selfish. And you are acting like a little kid. We've explained our reasoning behind the move at LEAST 3 times to you and you keep saying

"okay but WHY?"

And when you don't get your way it's immediately "OMG YOU GUYS HATE ME!!!" tell me how that's NOT the behaviour of a petulant little child. Now I've run the length of my patience. You can continue to complain, but I won't respond as I've said all that needs to be said and think I have appropriately justified my decision about 10 posts ago.

Truelight's "criticism" was addressed several times from several viewpoints. Yet he persisted in what was essentially "this is hard for me so change it back", which is disappointing particularly considering he is supposed to be a university graduate. We are human, and we will get annoyed if someone completely ignores our responses and continues in the same vein regardless.

If he had posted something more constructive, such as your post, then he would have been taken more seriously.

However, I agree that it was not handled in the best way and I apologise for my part in it.

Am I not allowed to voice my own opinions just because I have some red stars under my name then?

Sorry, I'll remember to carry out self-censorship next time :\

edit:

One of the reasons I continued posting on VN was that the mods were acting like users.

Yes, this is the environment we're trying to create. If you want to hold us (that includes admins and mods) on some kind of pedestal, go ahead, but I am not some kind of aloof robot who doesn't have emotions and ideas. Sorry for being human. :\

I agree that mods/admins should be able to hold/express whatever viewpoint they want. However, that's way different from petty name-calling and personal attacks. How is Truelight's university education in any way relevant to this matter? And how is it constructive to call someone 'lazy' and 'selfish'? I would be concerned if regular members were making those kinds of comments, not just mods. It wouldn't be banhammer worthy as such, but I'd be keeping an eye on it, for sure. And, from the perspective of a mod, I feel that the kind of nastiness displayed in this thread undermines what the mods are trying to achieve in terms of limiting drama.

Edit: I messed up the quotes

[werdna]

I'm just putting it out there, but the things that I said in this thread probably could have been avoided, or at least culled down, if members higher up in the AN hierarchy were a bit more responsible and careful in their comments. I understand that I'm accountable and liable for my own actions and discourse, but to a certain extent, I did take note of what others (and especially higher-ranked member) were saying, and yes, their comments definitely did influence. Just putting this out there guys, no harm intended.

[ninwa]

Eriny,

As someone with a university education, he should presumably be intelligent enough to understand the reasons we gave for the decision. However, he persisted in what was essentially "I don't like it so change it". (I'm repeating myself now.)

If you read back through the thread, I have acknowledged that it was handled badly, and apologised for my part in it. I would like to know what more you think I should do, since you are bringing it up again.

[enwiabe]

I have one regret. And that is that I did not explain the changes properly before engaging with Truelight. The problem was, I knew precisely what he was arguing the whole way. "This takes an extra click. Move it back." and this irked me to no end from the beginning that somebody could be so inwards looking and not even attempt to fathom the reasons for the change.

I should have politely explained the change. But even after it was explained, he persisted with his argument. I feel no regret for calling Truelight selfish, petulant or lazy. Demanding that something be changed back over an extra 0.5 second of effort is lazy. Persisting with wanting something changed merely because it annoys you, despite good reasons for the change -is- selfish.

I do not regret this. It was not petty namecalling, it was an expression of frustration with negative characteristics of Truelight's behaviour, It was not nasty, it was a rebuff of a selfish attitude and I do not regret that in the slightest.

What I regret is not having patiently explained it in the first post. The "..." was the sick feeling you get in your stomach when you realise precisely what someone else is thinking and you know you're in for a long day. I could see it coming. The fact that I saw it coming and did not have the presence of mind to attempt a decent first reply is inexcusable and I apologise for that. For everything after that, I have no regrets.

[Russ]

e, not worth it

[Andiio]

GUYS; I think we all need to take a chill pill, relax, kiss, and make up.

[echenzi]

Yes Chill.

Truth is you wouldn't say those things in person. It would lead to a punch on.

[enwiabe]

e, not worth it

You're very wise

[Eriny]

Eriny,

As someone with a university education, he should presumably be intelligent enough to understand the reasons we gave for the decision. However, he persisted in what was essentially "I don't like it so change it". (I'm repeating myself now.)

If you read back through the thread, I have acknowledged that it was handled badly, and apologised for my part in it. I would like to know what more you think I should do, since you are bringing it up again.

I don't want to blow this issue out of proportion any more than what it already has been. However since you addressed this post to me, reading back on the specific comment, it didn't read at all like 'True light is really intelligent and so therefore understands what we are saying, so there shouldn't be an issue'. It was condescending, you were saying that it was 'disappointing' that he didn't accept what you were saying, on the basis that he is university educated.

he persisted in what was essentially "this is hard for me so change it back", which is disappointing particularly considering he is supposed to be a university graduate.

Why is this not okay? Well, it's firstly irrelevant because one doesn't require a degree to understand a post or willingly click some extra buttons nor is it guaranteed that they would be particularly apt at doing those things by virtue of the fact that they have a degree. You further wouldn't know that he has a degree had he not volunteered that information in a different context, and therefore it is extraneous to the debate itself. You do not need to resort to referring to personal information if there is something legitimately wrong with what they are saying. Lastly, you were essentially citing the fact that he has a degree in a mean-spirited way, suggesting that someone who is 'supposed' to be university educated should be intelligent enough to stop complaining and because he didn't want to, there is something wrong with university education.

Maybe you didn't realise this, from this post I quoted I get the feeling that you didn't really mean it in that way at all, but rather in the way that you just suggested. I guess there isn't anything you can do to change it now that it has already happened, though, unless you meant it to be inoffensive, then maybe digs about someone's intelligence/education shouldn't be made in the same post as your admission that the situation wasn't well handled.

In any case, my post wasn't made to condemn you or enwiabe. For the record, I think you are overall very good admins. However, I think that it isn't okay to be mean to people when you have a really good argument already without resorting to personal attacks. (This is more directed to enwiabe - ) It's so unnecessary to insult people, and people reading along really do respond better when you refrain from doing that and just stick to the facts, particularly if you're right. You don't need to be frustrated, because you don't need to convince them if pretty much everyone else agrees! (me included, btw)