The employment outcomes of Arts graduates

[brendan]

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

[AppleXY]

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

Yeah, I know. I mean he is only the facts? Why are you restricting him? lol

[brendan]

I like this quote from a different thread on wages:

This whole debate has been spurred from extremely defensive people who have imagined arguments made by imaginary straw-men rather than actual claims by actual people.

[AppleThief]

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

Being unemployed/in a low-paying job is viewed negatively in our society (especially by you?), and you KNOW that. So stop with the "OMG HOW IS THAT NEGATIVE?!?!" act.

I like this quote from a different thread on wages:

This whole debate has been spurred from extremely defensive people who have imagined arguments made by imaginary straw-men rather than actual claims by actual people.

But most of the "defensive people" don't do Arts. What reason do we have to be defensive? i.e. we're not.

Anyway, people often criticise when jealous. Just putting that out there.

[brendan]

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

Being unemployed/in a low-paying job is viewed negatively, and you KNOW that. So stop with the "OMG HOW IS THAT NEGATIVE?!?!" act.

To paraphrase coblin:

They are mere numbers, and averages compiled from empirical evidence. They are facts. Read my post. They only become "negative" when you attach your own meaning to it. That requires your own value-input, something like "employment is good", before it becomes bad.

[AppleThief]

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

Being unemployed/in a low-paying job is viewed negatively, and you KNOW that. So stop with the "OMG HOW IS THAT NEGATIVE?!?!" act.

To paraphrase coblin:

They are mere numbers, and averages compiled from empirical evidence. They are facts. Read my post. They only become "negative" when you attach your own meaning to it. That requires your own value-input, something like "employment is good", before it becomes bad.

Then answer me this: Do you think employment is good?

If yes, you view Arts negatively.
If no, I doubt you're being truthful, and view Arts negatively.

[brendan]

The articles did not say that all Arts graduates will be unemployed/in a low-paying job:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/11/15/1226319000858.html
Graduate Careers Australia executive director Cindy Tilbrook said while the pain might be eased by vacancies due to an ageing workforce and an continuing skills shortage in areas such as health and engineering, those with a "less defined" career path from humanities or generalist degrees were more likely to struggle to find work.
"They are the ones who feel it even in good times because their outcomes are not as good as those in skill-shortage areas," she said.

http://andrewnorton.info/2008/11/over-qualified-workers/
26.3% of graduates were working in jobs that the ABS occupational classifications system says require vocational or no post-secondary education rather than higher education. That’s only .2% lower than last year. Work I have done on data from the 2006 census suggests that it is the generalist degrees, and particularly arts (with the exception of those with degrees in ‘philosophy and religious studies’), that drag down the average. About 40% of other Arts graduates are in jobs that don’t require higher education.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Education/documents/2007/02/07/UUKfulltext.pdf
One of the first analyses to consider the economic benefits of higher education subjects found that men in possession of an undergraduate degree achieved an earnings premium of approximately 15% over individuals in  possession of A-levels.The corresponding estimate for women was 19%.
However, men in possession of mathematics degrees achieved a 25.7% earnings premium over those with A-levels as their highest qualification, while corresponding women achieved a 38.6% earnings premium. In contrast,the premium for men in possession of undergraduate degrees in the arts was 4% less relative to those individuals with A-levels,whilst women achieved a  17% premium. Irrespective of the subject of study,the financial benefit of completing a degree is much greater for women than for men, but this may be due to the relatively low earnings of non-graduate women.

http://www.cis.org.au/Policy/winter00/polwin00-9.htm
… a survey by ACNielsen found that employers thought their Arts graduates had below average literacy skills. …
Since the mid-1970s Arts graduates have in each decade been experiencing a more difficult transition from study to work, to the point where more than 30% are still looking for full-time work four months after graduating. While their labour market position improves substantially over time, they never come close to matching their peers in some other degrees. People with degrees in what the Australian Bureau of Statistics calls ‘society and culture’ have unemployment rates about 50% above those of graduates generally. Wages too remain well below average, probably partly because some graduates are working in jobs for which degrees are not required.

[AppleThief]

Wow, I care so much I bothered to waste time reading them all 

By the way...how did that answer my previous question? You have a habit of dodging questions.

[brendan]

Wow, I care so much I bothered to waste time reading them all 

So you made claims about what I posted, without even bothering to read them at all? Good way to enhance the credibility of your argument.

What is it about the articles you find so "negative"?

Being unemployed/in a low-paying job is viewed negatively, and you KNOW that. So stop with the "OMG HOW IS THAT NEGATIVE?!?!" act.

To paraphrase coblin:

They are mere numbers, and averages compiled from empirical evidence. They are facts. Read my post. They only become "negative" when you attach your own meaning to it. That requires your own value-input, something like "employment is good", before it becomes bad.

Then answer me this: Do you think employment is good?

If yes, you view Arts negatively.
If no, I doubt you're being truthful, and view Arts negatively.

No need to re-write what has already been said well enough:

Let me just reiterate my point in my earlier post that this debate has been driven by those who are imagining claims that have never been actually said.

If you believe you can infer values from what Brendan is saying, let me remind you that they are your words, and not necessarily his.

As for the evidence that he is posting regarding Arts, it is empirical evidence - a statement about the world. It is a positive statement. However, this has little to no implications without a normative statement. An example of a normative statement is: "money is important," and hence combined with the positive statement, if valid, then it argues that arts is not important. However, that normative statement is not something that Brendan has argued for, and so it is up to you decide for yourself how to use the positive statement, according to your own personal values - your own set of normative statements.

[costargh]

Why are you arguing? Sure he MAY not like Arts. But all he's doing is posting articles that are freely available on the net. If you don't like these articles then don't read them.

He hasn't expressed an opinion on it. All he's done is give you links to potentially inform you and I don't see harm in that.

[brendan]

Why are you arguing? Sure he MAY not like Arts. But all he's doing is posting articles that are freely available on the net. If you don't like these articles then don't read them.

He hasn't expressed an opinion on it. All he's done is give you links to potentially inform you and I don't see harm in that.

Well put.

[Butler]

This is all getting very boring. You can all argue as much as you please, but nobody's opinion is going to be changed, so we may as well end the futility. As a potential Arts student, I don't take offense to any of the articles posted, I enjoy reading them in fact, and don't see how whatever opinion Brendan may have regarding said degrees should be such an issue.

[suenoga]

Brendans usual cheerleaders come into bat

Brendan is anti-arts. He can deny it, but its pretty simple to see the facts. He can post whatever he likes, but Brendan,  don't hide your real agenda behind posting the articles.

[brendan]

Brendan is anti-arts. He can deny it, but its pretty simple to see the facts.

Where have I ever said I am "anti-Arts"? If its so simple, go quote me. How are the articles even anti-Arts?

That you will still hold the view that I am "anti-Arts" even if I outright deny it, suggests that you think that you know me better than I do myself - the height of arrogance.

It seems that you either don't like the message, or simply can't handle it, so you attack the messenger instead.

[AppleThief]

Brendans usual cheerleaders come into bat

Brendan is anti-arts. He can deny it, but its pretty simple to see the facts. He can post whatever he likes, but Brendan,  don't hide your real agenda behind posting the articles.

This. All of it.

No need to re-write what has already been said well enough

Lol! But I'm not asking COBLIN what YOUR opinion is. I'm asking YOU..!