Student Unionism: Should it be Compulsory or Voluntary?

[brendan]

Should joining the student union and hence paying the membership fee, be voluntary or compulsory? What do you think?

[Collin Li]

You should know better than to have only compulsory or voluntary, what about "up to the universities"?

Haha. My vote goes to voluntary.

[enwiabe]

It's a tough decision. On the one hand, student unions do great work and provide many useful services to students. They get poor funding and any boost is a good thing.

On the other hand, the fee itself is not affordable for a significant proportion of people and on that merit alone I do not believe it should be compulsory. I think unionism needs a bit more from the government, to be honest, and not from the pockets of cash-strapped students.

[brendan]

You should know better than to have only compulsory or voluntary, what about "up to the universities"?

Haha. My vote goes to voluntary.

I'd put that option up if the Commonwealth government was to give up its quota system of allocating CSP places, and give universities more price flexibility to allow the proper working of the price mechanism in allocating resources efficiently.

[brendan]

I think unionism needs a bit more from the government

Hold on. Where does government get its revenue from? From us, the Australian people by the use of state coercion to compell the payment of taxes. But which is the more obnoxious: a compulsory fee paid by people who choose to attend university? or coercing everyone in Australia to pay for the student union services of people who choose to go to unversity?

[enwiabe]

We already pay taxes and that will not change. Allocating a little bit of those taxes to unions will not make much difference. The taxes are paid by those already working and gaining income. To ask students who do not necessarily have job and whose university tuition fees are a number one priority, this is a bit more of an ask. All I'm asking for is a bid of a budget reshuffle. A tiny one, miniscule, even.

[brendan]

We already pay taxes and that will not change. Allocating a little bit of those taxes to unions will not make much difference.

Taxation in itself is not justified. The justification for the compulsion of payment of monies to the Commonwealth Government is inherently linked to what those monies will be spent on. It is an undeniable fact, that when government decides to give funds to any person or group, that those funds are ultimately taxpayers' money - the resources of the Australian people taken by coercion through the use of state force. To give federal government funds to student unions is effectively to give special privileges to some by visiting burdens on many. If we take your logic, where will it end? By your logic there is no end, the people can be coerced to give up their income and wealth to any group, organisation, or person for any purpose conceivable, as long as the amount is "little". But who is to determine what is little and what is large? Indeed, what is "little"? Is $2,000,000 a little? Is $80,000,000 a little? But even if it was $1, the truth of my statements remains, and it makes no difference whether the amount of money involved is $1 or $1 billion.

[enwiabe]

We belong to the nation state of Australia. The reason why we enjoy probably the best quality of life the world over is that we contribute to each other's success. We all pay taxes, we all submit ourselves to the democracy that we enjoy today. If you don't like it, I encourage you to go and live in a country with no taxation policy - see how that works out for you.

I will be more than happy to pay my taxes when I start earning income. This notion of it being a 'coercive' measure that they're taking YOUR money and it's YOURS is just downright selfish. Now I'm sorry, but we live in the Australian community and we need to support each other. Some of my tax money will be going to aged care and the indigenous etc. Funds that will not benefit me. I'm more than happy to see it happen. I want to give back to the country that has given me so much, and so should you. Who's going to be footing alot of my medicare bill if I have a nasty accident and need surgery? The government. Who will foot the bill for my pension in old age? The government. Who builds the roads I will drive on, the infrastructure that makes everything so damned convenient and sets up ombudsmans to ensure fair trading practises? The government. How do they do it? With our tax monies. Go to Panama, there's no tax there, but see how caring the government is for your rights, and the lengths they'll be willing to go to for you.

[Collin Li]

We belong to the nation state of Australia. The reason why we enjoy probably the best quality of life the world over is that we contribute to each other's success. We all pay taxes, we all submit ourselves to the democracy that we enjoy today. If you don't like it, I encourage you to go and live in a country with no taxation policy - see how that works out for you.

I will be more than happy to pay my taxes when I start earning income. This notion of it being a 'coercive' measure that they're taking YOUR money and it's YOURS is just downright selfish. Now I'm sorry, but we live in the Australian community and we need to support each other. Some of my tax money will be going to aged care and the indigenous etc. Funds that will not benefit me. I'm more than happy to see it happen. I want to give back to the country that has given me so much, and so should you. Who's going to be footing alot of my medicare bill if I have a nasty accident and need surgery? The government. Who will foot the bill for my pension in old age? The government. Who builds the roads I will drive on, the infrastructure that makes everything so damned convenient and sets up ombudsmans to ensure fair trading practises? The government. How do they do it? With our tax monies. Go to Panama, there's no tax there, but see how caring the government is for your rights, and the lengths they'll be willing to go to for you.

How do these things rank as low as student unionism?

[enwiabe]

Rephrase please? I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by "things"?

[brendan]

We belong to the nation state of Australia. The reason why we enjoy probably the best quality of life the world over is that we contribute to each other's success. We all pay taxes, we all submit ourselves to the democracy that we enjoy today. If you don't like it, I encourage you to go and live in a country with no taxation policy - see how that works out for you.

No where do I ever advocate that there ought to be "no taxation". That is a complete straw-man argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."

I want to give back to the country that has given me so much, and so should you.

That's great for you, and I don't disagree with you on that. However, taxes by their very definition are coercive. Yet you seem to not want to acknowledge this. There are cases in which taxes are definitely justified.

This notion of it being a 'coercive' measure that they're taking YOUR money and it's YOURS

That is the inconvenient truth. You don't have to like the truth, you can probably ignore the truth, but it nevertheless is the truth. Do you think the ATO comes round every year and says to people "Oh hey Johnny, how you going? good? would you like to voluntarily donate some of your money to us? if would be really cool, however you don't have to, its your choice".

Your body, your mind, and the fruits of your labour, are yours. No one else owns you. I can think of nothing more absurdly selfish than coercing someone else to pay for your own services that which only you benefit.

[Collin Li]

Rephrase please? I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by "things"?

I think brendan's "strawman" fallacy points it out better: I was simply asking: how does student unionism fit in as a priority compared to public goods such as roads and education?

Student unionism is an unnecessary luxury that should be paid for if you want the service.

[brendan]

http://www.cis.org.au/issue_analysis/IA62/IA62.PDF

[Galelleo]

To give federal government funds to student unions is effectively to give special privileges to some by visiting burdens on many.

Does that include health care? and public schools?

are we not giving them privelages and burdening the people who arent sick or elderly, and lets say i already have my education, i dont wanna pay for others?

[brendan]

To give federal government funds to student unions is effectively to give special privileges to some by visiting burdens on many.

Does that include health care? and public schools?

are we not giving them privelages and burdening the people who arent sick or elderly, and lets say i already have my education, i dont wanna pay for others?

yes to all. but there are occasions when such government intervention is justified. this is not one of them.