What price minimum wage?

[brendan]

I mean, if there is a skills shortage or something there may be some unwanted fluctuations that restrict growth and really put us in a tight spot. So, the government can invest more in education or whatever and that can be effective in promoting growth and even freeing up the market mechanism (e.g. providing more choice of skilled labour). I guess the free market will sort that out by itself eventually (higher wages in skill shortage industries make more people go out and learn the skill - if they are able to), but that's off topic, lol. (I probably didn't choose the best example there)

What? Government exacerbated the skills shortage by its policy on universities. It is a government created problem.

And on price caps - why not? If you are going to use the "bargaining power" argument, then you should be in favor of price caps as well to be consistent.

[costargh]

I mean, if there is a skills shortage or something there may be some unwanted fluctuations that restrict growth and really put us in a tight spot. So, the government can invest more in education or whatever and that can be effective in promoting growth and even freeing up the market mechanism (e.g. providing more choice of skilled labour). I guess the free market will sort that out by itself eventually (higher wages in skill shortage industries make more people go out and learn the skill - if they are able to), but that's off topic, lol. (I probably didn't choose the best example there)

What? Government exacerbated the skills shortage by its policy on universities. It is a government created problem.

And on price caps - why not? If you are going to use the "bargaining power" argument, then you should be in favor of price caps as well to be consistent.

Agree about the policy on universites making skills shortage problem.

She explained why she is not in favour of price caps. She can choose to form her argument any way that she wants to

[Eriny]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

[costargh]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

And it was a good example. Basically we have this scenario where apparently unemployment is higher due to minimum wages (many of whom are living in poverty) yet Eriny has clearly demonstrated a scenario where without minimum wages poverty may be even more prevalent with unemployment being lower.

[Eriny]

And on price caps - why not? If you are going to use the "bargaining power" argument, then you should be in favor of price caps as well to be consistent.

I don't think that's inconsistent. I'm interested in creating society where everyone can work hard enough to gain equitable opportunities by ensuring that their needs are catered for completely (i.e. avoiding poverty wherever possible). I'm not interested with making sure that people have immediate access to their wants.

[Collin Li]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

But what gives the government the right to prevent them from that choice?

A minimum wage regime would force workers to differentiate themselves by offering insanely harsh work conditions, such as overtime without pay, and no bonuses as well as no unfair dismissal. What is to say that these concessions are more humane then working under the 'poverty line'?

[brendan]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

And it was a good example. Basically we have this scenario where apparently unemployment is higher due to minimum wages (many of whom are living in poverty) yet Eriny has clearly demonstrated a scenario where without minimum wages poverty may be even more prevalent with unemployment being lower.

but if a minimum wage makes you unemployed what good is it?

[brendan]

I'm interested in creating society where everyone can work hard enough to gain equitable opportunities by ensuring that their needs are catered for completely (i.e. avoiding poverty wherever possible).

In that case, you should be against the minimum wage.

[costargh]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

And it was a good example. Basically we have this scenario where apparently unemployment is higher due to minimum wages (many of whom are living in poverty) yet Eriny has clearly demonstrated a scenario where without minimum wages poverty may be even more prevalent with unemployment being lower.

but if it makes you unemployed what's good is it?

Safety net?  :laugh:

Gone around in a circle lol

[costargh]

I'm interested in creating society where everyone can work hard enough to gain equitable opportunities by ensuring that their needs are catered for completely (i.e. avoiding poverty wherever possible).

In that case, you should be against the minimum wage.

LOL If her proceeding posts weren't enough to indicate why she thinks that minimum wages will create a society where peoples needs are catered for then I advise you to re-read her posts.
Although I am very sure it was a tactical post =P

[brendan]

Minimum wages actually destroy "bargaining power," because it destroys the ability for workers to offer the services at a lower price. What is wrong with that?

Because if they offer it at a price too low, then they could still be living in virtual poverty. I had an example above of how being too desperate to work can mean that you have an insufficient income for a good standard of living.

And it was a good example. Basically we have this scenario where apparently unemployment is higher due to minimum wages (many of whom are living in poverty) yet Eriny has clearly demonstrated a scenario where without minimum wages poverty may be even more prevalent with unemployment being lower.

but if it makes you unemployed what's good is it?

Safety net?

The "safety net" is not universal, you only get it if you are employed. What good is "safety net" if you are bloody unemployed?

[Collin Li]

Safety net?  :laugh:

Gone around in a circle lol

No! A safety net, as brendan and I have proclaimed from the very beginning, is a false idea, because it will simply lead to people being unemployed at the cost of others. Even if the gain (with respect to how much money is being paid out by employers) is an overall gain (an empirical study is required), the 'consequentialist' gains are unjustified in violation of economic liberty because the gains come at a cost of another. Consequentialists believe that the ends justify the means.

The reason why I believe economic liberty is valuable is because a safety net only protects your wage, it doesn't protect anything else:

A minimum wage regime would force workers to differentiate themselves by offering insanely harsh work conditions, such as overtime without pay, and no bonuses as well as no unfair dismissal. What is to say that these concessions are more humane then working under the 'poverty line'?

[brendan]

There seems to be this ridiculous assumption being made, that if you institute a minimum wage law, employers will simply hire just as many workers, on just as many hours as before without the minimum wage, and that all that is different now is that those receiving a low wage before will have a job and their wages will be raised.

[Eriny]

Well, that's why there are laws that govern under what conditions a person will be employed.

I'm interested in creating society where everyone can work hard enough to gain equitable opportunities by ensuring that their needs are catered for completely (i.e. avoiding poverty wherever possible).

In that case, you should be against the minimum wage.

But I just explained earlier how there can just be a perpetuation of poverty when there are no safeguards in place. If you are stuck in a low paid job that's around poverty-level and have no means to pay for education, you will continue to be stuck in that job, potentially until you retire/die. Either that or you'll decide that working isn't worth what little you get, quit and someone else who is just as desperate will take your place for roughly the same wage (because there is no shortage of low skilled people). However, if your salary puts the food on the table, you have the opportunity to do what you need to go further in life. You could afford to go to uni part-time or something that will mean that you can get better skills. I know everyone loves the cliche that you can do whatever you like as long as you work hard, that's simply not true. Some people need a boost in order to have opportunities open to them.

And I think safety nets also provide some degree of welfare payments, re-training schemes and the like. It's not just about the minimum wage. But that's probably another debate

Also, if the minimum wage is so economically terrible, why is it that every developed country I can think of has one? It can't possibly be as evil as you guys make it out to be.

Anyway, I'm tired now. I'm going to log off.

[brendan]

Also, if the minimum wage is so economically terrible, why is it that every developed country I can think of has one? It can't possibly be as evil as you guys make it out to be.

So you say:
Everyone other developed country has one.
Therefore it must be good.