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January 01, 2026, 10:07:18 am

Author Topic: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians  (Read 7271 times)  Share 

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enwiabe

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2009, 10:04:54 pm »
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It was an empathetic sorry from Australia as a whole to a damaged generation of Australians. Not assigning blame to each individual person, but rather, to the Australia as a whole that allowed this to happen.

I guess those without the ability to empathise would not realise the significance and importance of this event.

suenoga

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2009, 10:27:02 pm »
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Kevin Rudd speaks about apology one year on
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25048143-12377,00.html

As for me, I am still not sorry, I have no guilt.

Do you at lest FEEL sorry for the victims?

kurrymuncher

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2009, 10:28:59 pm »
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Kevin Rudd speaks about apology one year on
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25048143-12377,00.html

As for me, I am still not sorry, I have no guilt.

I don't understand how you can hold that view. wait...what the fuck...why do I care what you think

excal

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2009, 10:31:33 pm »
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Kevin Rudd speaks about apology one year on
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25048143-12377,00.html

As for me, I am still not sorry, I have no guilt.

I don't understand how you can hold that view. wait...what the fuck...why do I care what you think

I think he's trying to say that he has no personal guilt to apologise for.
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costargh

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2009, 10:40:19 pm »
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I am sorry that that they went through the things that they did but I don't feel guilty in the slightest, not do I take on any personal apology.


I think that that is what Brendan is also trying to say.

Eriny

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2009, 11:53:22 pm »
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I feel guilty in that I'm essentially a beneficiary of violence and oppression. I recognise that it isn't my fault, but I'm very sorry for what happened.

excal

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2009, 12:17:54 am »
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I think there's a difference between feeling sorry (empathy) and being sorry (guilt) that needs to be highlighted...a battle of semantics really.
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lukeperry91

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2009, 11:37:49 pm »
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Quote
It was an empathetic sorry from Australia as a whole to a damaged generation of Australians. Not assigning blame to each individual person, but rather, to the Australia as a whole that allowed this to happen.

I guess those without the ability to empathise would not realise the significance and importance of this event.
So I guess those of us who are German Australians should be taxed to compensate holocaust victims? I guess Aborigines should be taxed even more to compensate child sexual abuse victims seeing as they're a part of the aboriginal culture that is notorious for child sexual abuse? When will closure occur? 10 years? 50 years? never?


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enwiabe

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2009, 12:01:44 am »
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It was an empathetic sorry from Australia as a whole to a damaged generation of Australians. Not assigning blame to each individual person, but rather, to the Australia as a whole that allowed this to happen.

I guess those without the ability to empathise would not realise the significance and importance of this event.
So I guess those of us who are German Australians should be taxed to compensate holocaust victims? I guess Aborigines should be taxed even more to compensate child sexual abuse victims seeing as they're a part of the aboriginal culture that is notorious for child sexual abuse? When will closure occur? 10 years? 50 years? never?

That's a bit absurd, re: Australians who have German heritage. They clearly no longer identify as German nationals. They no longer wear Germany's badge, they are AUSTRALIAN citizens. German taxes do fund Holocaust survivor compensation, you might be interested to know, despite the fact that almost all of the people paying those taxes did not actually participate in the holocaust. Would you argue that this is wrong? That this is theft?

And in regard to your second point, this is a bit ill-considered. The tragic child sexual abuse that occurs in Aboriginal communities is one of the horrible results of Western culture's interference in the Aboriginal culture that destroyed it, leaving it in a messy ruin. Bringing them things like alcohol and guns but not teaching them how to drink responsibly and educating about gun safety. And so, what happens when you introduce radical changes from a foreign culture? You get a horrible mish-mash that can only end in disaster.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 12:03:33 am by admin »

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2009, 12:47:13 am »
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It was an empathetic sorry from Australia as a whole to a damaged generation of Australians. Not assigning blame to each individual person, but rather, to the Australia as a whole that allowed this to happen.

I guess those without the ability to empathise would not realise the significance and importance of this event.
So I guess those of us who are German Australians should be taxed to compensate holocaust victims? I guess Aborigines should be taxed even more to compensate child sexual abuse victims seeing as they're a part of the aboriginal culture that is notorious for child sexual abuse? When will closure occur? 10 years? 50 years? never?
You are confusing apology with punishment ...
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xXNovaxX

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2009, 01:12:12 am »
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I feel guilty in that I'm essentially a beneficiary of violence and oppression. I recognise that it isn't my fault, but I'm very sorry for what happened.
I think you nailed it. I think that's the whole POINT which those who support an apology are trying to get through. In this case it isn't so much about THEM and US, or THEY get benefits, and THEY have abuse in communities etc (not stating facts, just words/opinions of people). The sorry was what the Aboriginals asked for to move ON, to start new....personally it for me if I was Aboriginal, wouldn't have made a difference to my life, that is if i wanted to do well in life s.o.r.r.y. would make little difference. HOWEVER, for thousands out there it did, and we need to keep that in mind

Take it like this, Kevin Rudd has already said sorry, it's done. No point saying he should or shouldn't have. Besides, we have nothing to lose in him saying that, we're still living our lives etc as normal.

xXNovaxX

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2009, 01:17:07 am »
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Kevin Rudd speaks about apology one year on
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25048143-12377,00.html

As for me, I am still not sorry, I have no guilt.
And that's perfectly okay. Of course! You weren't the cause of the abuse, you weren't alive at the time etc. But what the issue is is that people are saying "he shouldn't have said sorry, we have nothing to apologies for"  

I know Rudd used somewhere like "we as Australian say sorry" or something that incorporates ALL of us, I can understand why some people may be annoyed at that since they don't support an apology, but thing is, its sort of evenly divided, and so the well mannered thing to say (remember its a politician), would be to incorporate us all. Why would the Gov want to further cause a rift between us and them?

lukeperry91

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2009, 01:32:24 pm »
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It was an empathetic sorry from Australia as a whole to a damaged generation of Australians. Not assigning blame to each individual person, but rather, to the Australia as a whole that allowed this to happen.

I guess those without the ability to empathise would not realise the significance and importance of this event.
So I guess those of us who are German Australians should be taxed to compensate holocaust victims? I guess Aborigines should be taxed even more to compensate child sexual abuse victims seeing as they're a part of the aboriginal culture that is notorious for child sexual abuse? When will closure occur? 10 years? 50 years? never?

That's a bit absurd, re: Australians who have German heritage. They clearly no longer identify as German nationals. They no longer wear Germany's badge, they are AUSTRALIAN citizens. German taxes do fund Holocaust survivor compensation, you might be interested to know, despite the fact that almost all of the people paying those taxes did not actually participate in the holocaust. Would you argue that this is wrong? That this is theft?

And in regard to your second point, this is a bit ill-considered. The tragic child sexual abuse that occurs in Aboriginal communities is one of the horrible results of Western culture's interference in the Aboriginal culture that destroyed it, leaving it in a messy ruin. Bringing them things like alcohol and guns but not teaching them how to drink responsibly and educating about gun safety. And so, what happens when you introduce radical changes from a foreign culture? You get a horrible mish-mash that can only end in disaster.

Change 'taxed' in my first point to 'morally obligated to pay'. Also, holocaust survivors and aborigines are not analogous; it would be analogous if compensation was paid to ALL German Jews, in which case, I would deem that as unrighteous taxation or as you put it 'theft'. This is because the correlation that they are both German and Jewish does not prove the causation that they suffer because of these attributes. I'm not arguing against the distribution of wealth to the disadvantaged, or even that most aboriginals deserve welfare, but to prioritize them above other people based on criteria that is irrespective of their financial status; it is not only wasteful, but racist.

To say that the gross treatment of children that is prevalent in rural aboriginal communities in the present time is the product of the Westernisation of Austalia is what is 'ill-considered'. For that to be even close to true, child sexual abuse amongst aboriginals must have been negligible before colonization. I'm not interested in the aboriginal's situation c100 years ago, I'm interested in what it is now: equal rights, citizenship and a better quality of life. If you ask them whether or not they would like to have things back to the way they used to be 200 years ago, most Indigenous Australian's would sternly decline. This is because they now have it BETTER OFF, with a higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality rate, better health, and wider grounds for which to build their happiness upon.

As far as the colony's responsibility to educate natives in alcohol and weapons responsibility goes, the very idea of such education even amongst whites in the age of colonisation is ridiculous. And if Admin was referring to present day, education does exist. Maybe their tendency towards alcohol dependency is due to the fact that they cannot metabolize alcohol as other races can. Maybe their tendency towards violence and child abuse is due to their lower average IQ (whether inherited genetically or acquired environmentally), after all, there is a correlation between intelligence and violence.
And for all you nay-sayers: I'm talking about culturally relevant IQ testing conducted empirically and without bias, some references to this are found in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Also, calls for the removal of alcohol from certain rural communities with aboriginal inhabitants was met with outrage by its inhabitants, as it is in fact an incursion on their freedom of choice. This is because alcohol is not illegal! This further rebukes any claim that alcohol is one of the direct causes of child sexual abuse because if proof existed that it was, it would be immediately deemed illegal!
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enwiabe

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2009, 02:21:59 pm »
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Can't say I agree with you. You say you don't care about the situation 100 years ago, but it is exactly that situation from 100 years ago that led to what it is today. Of course they can't go back to what they had 200 years ago. They don't bloody well know how to go back to what they had 200 years ago. They're stuck in this excruciating limbo between the primitive hunter-gatherer culture which they left behind and the wildly accelerated modern world society to which they were expected to transition overnight. To argue that they have it "better off" is an extremely subjective debate. Do you honestly think that being stripped of their dignity and culture is 'better off'? We stole their way of life from under their feet. Now they cannot fend for themselves. They were once a proud race comprising 250 nations and thousands of clans. And now they're at the mercy of government welfare. You tell me that that is a "better way of life". We took their independence. The very least we can do is provide the monetary support required to help them get it back. To educate them to the point where they can fully adapt into our society. We have already passed the point of no return.

They didn't have a choice. So now you say "oh but now they have equal rights and citizenship"... So what? Their communities are so broken, that this tokenism of "come live in our society" is supposed to rectify the fact that we destroyed their culture and imposed ours upon them in such a way that for the majority of them, they live in a complete shambles? The irony of this is also that they don't really live in our society, do they? How many aboriginals do you know personally? I know very few. They are almost completely isolated from metropolitan society. They don't HAVE equal opportunity, and won't have it until we repair their broken communities.

Also, back then, the colony had far less of an impetus to educate its own citizens about gun use because by and large, most of them had adapted to their culture's values for hundreds of years and were brought up as such. That is why the idea of educating its own citizens was preposterous - they already knew the rules of the game. The aboriginals didn't. And every single generation of aboriginal from the time the early settlers came until now has been conflicted by that culture confusion.

I think your IQ claims are ludicrous and belie a complete ignorance of the fact that studies have shown that education during formative years greatly affects a person's IQ and EQ. Yes, EQ is very important as well. The current education programs available are clearly not working, and banning alcohol would be the wrong move (and would truly be discrimination). What we need is to pour a fuckload more money into the programs which will hopefully arrest the cycle as it begins - with the children - and teach them how to properly deal with their culture clash, so that they can still retain their proud heritage, whilst adapting to modern day society.

I've saved your first point till last, because it ties in here the best. Actually, holocaust survivors and aboriginals are extremely analogous. Both were the subjects of attempted genocide, and both are still recovering from the wounds of the atrocities committed against them. I think you'll find that it is incumbent upon us to support their welfare.

I'm not arguing that aborigines be individually compensated for their ancestors' suffering. I'm arguing that the aborigines today be compensated with education programs, medical care, and yes, money in the bank each week, so that they can achieve a standard of living comparable to that of the rest of Australia. Those that manage to become independent and make the transition back to independent, proud lives, should not receive compensation, I agree. But those that don't or are yet to do so are most certainly deserving of such compensation. And I gladly give my taxes in support of such endeavours, as do the majority of all Australians, who elected Kevin Rudd to power in 2007 on that platform of indigenous welfare and apology.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 02:28:17 pm by admin »

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Re: Saying sorry to Indigenous Australians
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2009, 05:33:19 pm »
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yeah i agree with admin on most things but not sure about the solutions...government solutions dont seem to work well lol they usually make things worse
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