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May 02, 2026, 08:46:13 pm

Author Topic: Immigration Restrictions  (Read 17554 times)  Share 

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brendan

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #195 on: June 12, 2008, 07:08:51 pm »
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and what are the arguments that have been provided for why the government shouldnt restrict immigration?

check the thread.

brendan

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #196 on: June 12, 2008, 07:10:07 pm »
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Where's your evidence for the argument that restricting immigration is a bad thing? Figures, statistics, even anecdotes? In other arguments you have asked that other people provide evidence - now it's your turn.

Evidence only relates to proving positive propositions i.e. "what is".

When it comes to normative propositions "what ought to be" it is not  necessary though it often involves providing evidence to prove some positive proposition.

For example:
(1) More employment is preferable to less employment.
(2) Minimum wage laws have negative employment effects.
(3) Minimum wage laws are undesirable

(2) is a positive proposition, that's where the evidence comes in. (1) can be neither proven nor disproven, it is not a factual statement, it's really a statement of value.

The most that can be said relating to normative arguments using the above example, is that: If (1), and (2) holds true, then (3). (3) only follows from (2) if you accept (1).

Of course we could abstract endlessly and keep asking why, but there comes a point where you must simply accept some normative proposition as being axiomatic. Let me illustrate:
Rape, murder, theft. Why are they wrong? Maybe because you believe that one person harming another is wrong, rape involves the harm of another and hence rape is wrong. But then you've just assumed that harming another is wrong. Why? You see we can keep on going forever. So there must come a point where you stop and  simply accept a normative proposition as being axiomatic. So maybe you might end it there and say "harming another is wrong" and that is the axiom from which all your other policy conclusions, morals, etc. proceed from. Or maybe you just hold the view that rape is wrong and that is it.

My reasons for not liking most of the governmental restrictions on immigration is that i simply see no reason for why they ought to exist. And the reasons that have been commonly given for the existence, i find either completely false, misleading, deceptive or morally repugnant.

costargh

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #197 on: June 12, 2008, 07:11:27 pm »
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I have. There appears to be an absence of them, except for Coblin's and I've already addressed two of his points (the 2nd one I didn't understand)

brendan

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #198 on: June 12, 2008, 07:15:13 pm »
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Now here is an example of an argument against immigration that utilizes many of the quite questionable points made earlier by mark and costargh

http://helpsavevirginia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=734&Itemid=174
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/againsti.htm
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:02:39 pm by Brendan »

Collin Li

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #199 on: June 13, 2008, 03:11:52 pm »
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One thing I will make perfectly clear about my stance on immigration: I am pro-immigration, and anti-welfare state.

You cannot have both without facing severe free-rider problems -- it is a trade-off between one or the other.

BA22

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #200 on: June 13, 2008, 05:06:54 pm »
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True coblin, but i don't like the perception people have that a majority of immigrants are just here for a free ride. When i ever i go to centrlink for my youth allowance, all i generally see is middle aged "Australians". I think some immigrants could show "true blue" what hard work really is. This perception people have about immigrants alludes to the underlying prejudice we have about foriegners in Australia ie. they don't speak english becuas ethey don't want to, they don't mix with the community becuase they don't want to. If we were truly worried about stopping a welfare dependent state, then we wouldn't have a baby bonus. The fact is we want more people here, but we only seem to want more "Australians" here.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 05:11:01 pm by BA22 »

ninwa

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #201 on: June 13, 2008, 07:25:14 pm »
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One thing I will make perfectly clear about my stance on immigration: I am pro-immigration, and anti-welfare state.
Ditto
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brendan

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #202 on: June 13, 2008, 07:33:55 pm »
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One thing I will make perfectly clear about my stance on immigration: I am pro-immigration, and anti-welfare state.

I would qualify that by saying i'm anti-immigration restriction and anti-welfare state


marine ices

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Re: Immigration Restrictions
« Reply #204 on: March 30, 2009, 09:03:23 am »
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   although Brendan has questioned the govt's right to control immigration, i'm not sure he actually would advocate a total lack of govt control of immigration. 
  just as he has often iterated that "taxation is coercion", but nevertheless doesn't advocate zero taxation