Abortion Legislation - is it truly pro-choice?

[ninwa]

Im sure an abortion is a Google search away.

Erm? I don't quite understand?
Of course an abortion itself isn't a Google search away. That's not what I said o.O

finding a clinic which will perform an abortion involves a simple Google search

[enwiabe]

Also, http://www.google.com.au/search?q=abortion

This statement is condescending to the extreme, and redolent of your inability to sympathise with the mental state of a woman with an unwanted baby.

[Collin Li]

The poster is a male, according to the VN profile.

Rather, like ninwa, I respect women enough to believe in their ability to be resourceful, and to seek avenues for help regarding abortions despite the presence of obestricians who do not supply abortions.

[cardiovascular]

The doctor is simply recommending a different doctor, they are not recommending someone to do the abortion.

I suggest you read this article. http://mariestopes-px.rtrk.com.au/news/174

A 2004 study looking at the views of 2,500 GPs - General Practitioners: Attitudes to Abortion[1] also found that 84% of GPs support access to abortion services for all women

[ninwa]

Actually, does anyone know the actual legislation which states that doctors must refer?

The Crimes Act only makes abortion legal, I can't find any other provisions in there.

[Collin Li]

The doctor is simply recommending a different doctor, they are not recommending someone to do the abortion.

Under what conditions must the doctor do this?

If this is the case, I was misinformed. In principle, I would still be against it, but realistically, I understand it would have little effect on the market of doctors (yet little to help the welfare of consumers too). There would still be the possibility of hidden advice regarding an abortion which is unenforceable.

Everything I say about resourceful women and innovation of the medicine industry remain potent solutions to these kinds of dilemmas.

[enwiabe]

The poster is a male, according to the VN profile.

Rather, like ninwa, I respect women enough to believe in their ability to be resourceful, and to seek avenues for help regarding abortions despite the presence of obestricians who do not supply abortions.

But do you sympathise with the fact that many women are not in the correct mental state to make such decisions and hunt down 'correct' avenues, and require the guiding hand of a professional? Do you then consider that given the position of power and trust of the doctor, that he would actually be imposing HIS beliefs on the woman by not offering her a referral to a specialist who will let her consider all avenues?

You are placing too much responsibility on the hypothetical woman who cannot be assumed to be of sound mind, when she is clearly going through so great a trauma as considering an abortion.

[cardiovascular]

Relevant legislation can be found here: http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubLawToday.nsf/2184e627479f8392ca256da50082bf3e/6DD27AAAAA5956A7CA2574EB00016845/$FILE/08-58a001.pdf

Quote: 8 Obligations of registered health practitioner who
has conscientious objection
(1) If a woman requests a registered health
practitioner to advise on a proposed abortion, or to
perform, direct, authorise or supervise an abortion
for that woman, and the practitioner has a
conscientious objection to abortion, the
practitioner must—
(a) inform the woman that the practitioner has a
conscientious objection to abortion; and
(b) refer the woman to another registered health
practitioner in the same regulated health
profession who the practitioner knows does
not have a conscientious objection to
abortion.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a practitioner
who is under a duty set out in subsection (3)
or (4).
(3) Despite any conscientious objection to abortion,
a registered medical practitioner is under a duty to
perform an abortion in an emergency where the
abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the
pregnant woman.
(4) Despite any conscientious objection to abortion,
a registered nurse is under a duty to assist a
registered medical practitioner in performing an
abortion in an emergency where the abortion is
necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant
woman.
__________________
s. 8

[jess3254]

If this is the case, I was misinformed. In principle, I would still be against it, but realistically, I understand it would have little effect on the market of doctors (yet little to help the welfare of consumers too). There would still be the possibility of hidden advice regarding an abortion which is unenforceable.

I said this 9 months ago. Repetitively. In several posts. No one is being forced to perform an abortion, the only requirement is that you refer on to another physician or medical professional who is able to offer advice/assistance if you are unable to due to moral objections.

[Collin Li]

If this is the case, I was misinformed. In principle, I would still be against it, but realistically, I understand it would have little effect on the market of doctors (yet little to help the welfare of consumers too). There would still be the possibility of hidden advice regarding an abortion which is unenforceable.

I said this 9 months ago. Repetitively. In several posts. No one is being forced to perform an abortion, the only requirement is that you refer on to another physician or medical professional who is able to offer advice/assistance if you are unable to due to moral objections.

I was reading more recent posts and arguing in response to the arguments, not about the legislation. Similarly, I understand a great deal of commerce (the concepts and how to apply them) but not necessarily all the taxation ins and outs (the particular case specifics).

Additionally, such laws are largely unenforceable. I advocate self-reliance, and a medical system that does not remain fixed on archaic traditional means of delivering information - there needs to be room to innovate (using the Web 2.0 environment, as I suggested).

Before you, (and I was writing this and then it went "while you were typing a new reply has been posted...") the only female in this thread reckons females aren't helpless in this situation. Neither does my girlfriend.

[ninwa]

Freedom of thought, conscience, religion and belief

People have the freedom to have or choose a religion or belief, and the freedom to demonstrate their religion or belief. They can do this privately or publicly - at home, at work or in a place of worship - as part of a group or alone. For example, banning the wearing of religious symbols could be a breach of freedom of religion.

I'd just like to add however that I wouldn't be against legislation which makes it mandatory for doctors who are against performing abortions to make that clear to patients before they begin the consultation.

[Collin Li]

Freedom of thought, conscience, religion and belief

People have the freedom to have or choose a religion or belief, and the freedom to demonstrate their religion or belief. They can do this privately or publicly - at home, at work or in a place of worship - as part of a group or alone. For example, banning the wearing of religious symbols could be a breach of freedom of religion.

I'd just like to add however that I wouldn't be against legislation which makes it mandatory for doctors who are against performing abortions to make that clear to patients before they begin the consultation.

Me neither. Simple information improving regulations are often a must - infact they are nothing close to the burdensome types of government interference that exist in overregulated industries like medicine. These are just simple anti-fraud measures.

[enwiabe]

Nobody said they were helpless. All that was argued was that they are vulnerable, WHICH THEY ARE, and that they cannot be assumed to be of sound mind, given the potential emotional trauma that they are experiencing.

In a good democracy, the minority sufferer must always be accounted for.

There will be a minority of these women who are helpless, who don't know hwat to do, who don't possess the mental faculty to seek an answer for themselves, who might be swayed by a morally self-righteous doctor imposing their beliefs on them.

This situation must be allowed for. It must be combatted against. The solution to the problem is extremely simple. Refer to a doctor who is not morally compromised by any avenues of choice available to the woman.

[cardiovascular]

Nobody said they were helpless. All that was argued was that they are vulnerable, WHICH THEY ARE, and that they cannot be assumed to be of sound mind, given the potential emotional trauma that they are experiencing.

In a good democracy, the minority sufferer must always be accounted for.

There will be a minority of these women who are helpless, who don't know hwat to do, who don't possess the mental faculty to seek an answer for themselves, who might be swayed by a morally self-righteous doctor imposing their beliefs on them.

This situation must be allowed for. It must be combatted against. The solution to the problem is extremely simple. Refer to a doctor who is not morally compromised by any avenues of choice available to the woman.

+1

[ninwa]

The doctor is simply recommending a different doctor, they are not recommending someone to do the abortion.

Quote: 8 Obligations of registered health practitioner who
has conscientious objection
(1) ... the practitioner must—
(a) inform the woman that the practitioner has a conscientious objection to abortion; and
(b) refer the woman to another registered health practitioner in the same regulated health profession who the practitioner knows does not have a conscientious objection to abortion.

If the doctor referred to does not have an objection to abortion, surely that's equivalent to recommending someone to do the abortion?


The point about the law being largely unenforceable is also true. Abortion was only recently legalised. Before that, countless abortions were regardless being performed by way of a loophole in the legislation back then. The Victorian Law Reform Commission found that all this achieved was a lessening of the community's faith and trust in the law, since it was pretty much impossible to enforce and was being flouted every day.

There are some things legislation and regulation will not solve.