Zionism

[enwiabe]

Just to point out one thing:

Nobody in the Jewish community expects lecturers to say 'OMGZ ISRAEL IS 100% RIGHT IN EVERYTHING IT DOES AND WE SHOULD ALL LOVE ISRAEL'

Anti-Israel =/= Antisemitic
Nothing wrong with being against Israel itself.

Now that depends. If you're against Israel's actions/policies, then I would agree with you. That is most certainly not anti-semitic. But if you are against the existence of Israel then I would contend that that is, in fact, decidedly anti-semitic.

[brendan]

if you are against the existence of Israel then I would contend that that is, in fact, decidedly anti-semitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism
"Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate."

[orsel]

wut?
You do realise that's a month old.

In any case, even being against the existence of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic. I take the definition of 'existence' here to be the current exact borders of Israel, which is also a definition that I think the Israeli government takes, given their continual and relentless rejection of any attempt to partly restore Palestine.

[enwiabe]

Anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism. How can you call for the destruction of a country that has now been in existence for 60 years and is the home of more than 6 million people? That is anti-semitism to the extreme.

[enwiabe]

wut?
You do realise that's a month old.

In any case, even being against the existence of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic. I take the definition of 'existence' here to be the current exact borders of Israel, which is also a definition that I think the Israeli government takes, given their continual and relentless rejection of any attempt to partly restore Palestine.

In my eyes, the two-state solution should be pre-1967 borders with a few modifications to ensure both parties are satisfied, with Jerusalem EITHER being shared, or becoming an international city. I think Israel/Palestine existing in its current state is entirely wrong and needs to change.

[brendan]

I am anti the existence of the North Korean State. It's probably been around for a bit longer than 60 years as well. Does that make me inherently anti-Korean?

[enwiabe]

Some reading for you, Brendan, I ascribe to this viewpoint :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/29/comment

[enwiabe]

I am anti the existence of the North Korean State. It's probably been around for a bit longer than 60 years as well. Does that make me inherently anti-Korean?

No, becuase not all Koreans identify with North Korea.

Zionism is an ingrained part of the Jewish culture. We are supposed to live in Israel, the only reason there are diaspora Jews is because we were exiled. The vast majority of the world's Jews are Zionist. It is written in the scriptures for all to see that Israel is SUPPOSED to be the Jewish homeland.

Now, I'm not going to take that word as gospel. I'm all for sharing Israel with the other rightful inhabitants of that land (the Palestinians). But to say that anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic is ludicrous when Zionism is so much a part of Jewish culture. And sure, whilst not all Jews practice Zionism (I.E. immigrating to Israel), that does not make anti-Zionism any less of what it is; thinly veiled anti-semitism.

To call for the destruction of a sovereign nation state that has already been established for 60 years that is trying to be a peaceful, democratic entity on the world stage and is home to millions of people is just ludicrous. Israel has the highest per capita output of PhD's. When so much is being fed back to humanity by such a country, the only possible reason you could have to be against it is something a whole lot more sinister.

Anti-Zionism was not anti-semitic 60 years ago when Israel was first being formed. BEFORE the country was formed, such debate and argument over the existence of a Jewish state would have been valid and welcomed. However, now that it is already in existence and a home to millions, to call for its destruction is madness. The only logical solution to the problem is that of the two-state solution.

[Collin Li]

I am anti the existence of the North Korean State. It's probably been around for a bit longer than 60 years as well. Does that make me inherently anti-Korean?

No, becuase not all Koreans identify with North Korea.

...

I thought it would have been more about whether the land of the Korean state was rightfully acquired and justifiable.

If I declared myself a new race and I identified with a particular piece of land (all Coblinians identify with Jamaica), do I now have property rights over it, and those who oppose me are anti-Coblinian?

[enwiabe]

No, because you weren't given the property rights. When Israel was formed, Great Britain had the property rights throught he British mandate (after they conquered the Ottoman Empire). These rights were transferred into a land-sharing split between Israel and Palestine. Israel was GIVEN these land rights by the rulers of the land at the time, making it a perfectly legal entitlement.

You only have the property rights over it if they were given to you, as they were to Israel in 1948. To be anti-Zionist is retarded because Israel was formed legally under a UN resolution, and given land from the British mandate as laid out in the Balfour declaration.

Your scenario is a completely flawed comparison to what went down in 1948.

[Collin Li]

I'm not necessarily against Israel (couldn't care less - it's a regional issue, not something for me to intervene in), so I'm not going to dispute any of those propositions.

I'm just saying that "identifying" with a state doesn't make anti-State into anti-people.

[suenoga]

I think people take issue with the Zionism as they don't believe any country should be based on the ideals of one religion. This is a genuine argument as their are some distortions between the separation of religion and state in Israel, as their are in many Muslim countries. I think this is a flawed argument against Israel but certainly one which isn't anti-Semitic. There are however, many people who hide their Anti-Semitism behind their calls for the destruction of Israel.  

[osmoister]

Anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism. How can you call for the destruction of a country that has now been in existence for 60 years and is the home of more than 6 million people? That is anti-semitism to the extreme.

Incorrect, Anti-Zionism is against the State of Israel but not against Jewish people or their right to dwell on the land. Anti-semitism is against the Jewish people and their existance altogether. I'm not Anti-Zionist or anything, but if you refer to Israel existing for the last 60 years, I could argue that for the past 1400 years it wasn't.

wut?
You do realise that's a month old.

In any case, even being against the existence of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic. I take the definition of 'existence' here to be the current exact borders of Israel, which is also a definition that I think the Israeli government takes, given their continual and relentless rejection of any attempt to partly restore Palestine.

In my eyes, the two-state solution should be pre-1967 borders with a few modifications to ensure both parties are satisfied, with Jerusalem EITHER being shared, or becoming an international city. I think Israel/Palestine existing in its current state is entirely wrong and needs to change.

I agree, but Jerusalem should be as it was pre-1967; that is the east belongs to the Palestinians and the West belongs to Israel . That stupid wall should also be brought down.

[suenoga]

I agree, but Jerusalem should be as it was pre-1967; that is the east belongs to the Palestinians and the West belongs to Israel . That stupid wall should also be brought down.
[/quote]

1. 97 percent of that wall is a fence
2. The issue is not so black and white, The walll has proven effective in reducing terrorism inside the borders of the Jewish State.

[osmoister]

1. 97 percent of that wall is a fence
2. The issue is not so black and white, The walll has proven effective in reducing terrorism inside the borders of the Jewish State.

have you seen the documentary recently on sbs regarding the same topic. there are numerous gaps where people literally just walk through to the other side.