LOTE's are on a decline says latest figures.

[hard]

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24856983-5006336,00.html

The erosion of foreign language study in our education system is all the more unfortunate because this was recognised as a strategic priority by both politicians and educators more than a decade ago.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Everyone's too scared to try a LOTE, even with the massive scaling.

Some LOTEs are seriously unfair to non background speakers though, particularly the LOTEs where there are a significant number of background speakers in Australia. Even though Chinese is divided into three levels, it's still near impossible for a non background speaker to get a decent grade, even in the lowest bracket

[ursus]

Haha on a decline alright!
There were 4 people in my Indonesian class this year (down from 25 in year 10), and only 7 or 8 did Japanese (down from about 50ish in year 10).

[Eriny]

I agree on the 'scary' point. Someone who hasn't had a background in speaking a certain language can barely hope to become fluent, let alone have enough talent to rival the abilities of someone who does have a background in the language. Scaling doesn't really make up for this.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

This is compounded by the inherent inequality of a system that divides some LOTES into 1st Language and 2nd Language, while making other ones all-inclusive (native and non native speakers)

Even LOTEs that are divided into 1st Language and 2nd Language (Or even 2nd Language advanced) have a significant amount of background speakers in the 2nd Language stream. They may be born in Australia, but speak the language fluently at home, giving them a significant advantage over someone who starts to learn the language at year 7. 2 years ago someone got 50 raw in Japanese at my school, but he was Japanese, and the next person below him was quite a bit off. He qualified for second language stream because ethnicity and speaking the language at home isn't taking into account. But Japanese people aren't too common in Australia, so it's still possible for non Japanese people to score reasonably high. For other languages it's not so possible.

Doing a language like Chinese at 2nd Language level without speaking it at home is pretty much mark suicide. Unfortunately Chinese is also a language that Australian businesses want.

[bubble sunglasses]

  What can you do? It's obviously an advantage to grow up bilingual or be able to afford an exchange to another country, just as there's [that word again] inequality between students with good teachers, tutors, environments, etc, and without them.
 
 On the "scary" point, of course learning LOTE's for the first time can be daunting, but just because your speaking might be slow and erroneous at the beginning, doesn't mean you can't achieve a level of fluency [and proficiency in the other sections assessed] after a relatively short time. droodles , for instance, had an Asian background and had only been to France for a month, but became proficient through great passion. 

[IntoTheNewWorld]

This is slightly off the point but I think LOTE learning should start a bit earlier, like primary school level. I know primary schools do "try" and teach LOTE...but it's a joke really, pretty much limited to hello, goodbye and numbers. Maybe if kids are taught a LOTE seriously, earlier, they'll see that learning a language is actually possible, and the advantage of the background speakers may be reduced a bit. The way LOTE is taught now, most VCE level students can hardly be described as fluent (obviously except the very top students). I started Japanese in year 9, and within a year caught up to and surpassed many who have studied from primary school. This is mainly because primary school and early high school LOTE is not taken seriously at all, just a dud subject that will be dropped as soon as allowed.

[NE2000]

This is slightly off the point but I think LOTE learning should start a bit earlier, like primary school level. I know primary schools do "try" and teach LOTE...but it's a joke really, pretty much limited to hello, goodbye and numbers. Maybe if kids are taught a LOTE seriously, earlier, they'll see that learning a language is actually possible, and the advantage of the background speakers may be reduced a bit. The way LOTE is taught now, most VCE level students can hardly be described as fluent (obviously except the very top students). I started Japanese in year 9, and within a year caught up to and surpassed many who have studied from primary school. This is mainly because primary school and early high school LOTE is not taken seriously at all, just a dud subject that will be dropped as soon as allowed.

I agree, primary school LOTE was not structured well enough to build both an interest and a proficiency in pursuing a study of that language in your senior high school years. Also, apart frmo the scaling, a lot of people just don't have the motivation to continue learning the LOTE. Even if they are good at it, they sometimes just can't be bothered learning it and at other times they feel that the competition to get high scores in their chosen LOTE is too high and that native speakers will probably beat them anyway (in my experience, non-Chinese people doing Chinese SL often feel that all the ppl who talk Chinese at home have an advantage over them)

[Eriny]

I learned Japanese in primary school, and all I know is how to count to ten. And I think this has more to do with going to karate than with my Japanese lessons.

I think someone can certainly be very good at a language if they've studied it from year 7 to year 12, but fluency is something different altogether. Very few language learners seem to achieve it without language immersion. This becomes significant if people are aiming for and ENTER in the high 99's or whatever.

However, some students who do have a background in a language can sometimes be the worst to teach. They can be complacent and feel that they don't really need to try learning the formalities of a language. They might be very good in conversation, but as far as I've heard, that's not really good enough at VCE level. These students probably aren't quite fluent, though.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

However, some students who do have a background in a language can sometimes be the worst to teach. They can be complacent and feel that they don't really need to try learning the formalities of a language. They might be very good in conversation, but as far as I've heard, that's not really good enough at VCE level. These students probably aren't quite fluent, though.

That's a good point, as VCE LOTE doesn't assess informal general conversation skills, but formal language in responses that are basically half memorised. However, having a background in a language enables people to be very quick with responses, without a need to think too hard about what they're saying.

Of course, this doesn't help with writing/reading...Even though I speak Vietnamese at home, I know I would get completely destroyed on VCE Vietnamese if I attempted it. I understand Japanese grammar/mechanics and can write better than I can in Vietnamese, but when speaking Japanese I have to think and as a result am not as fluent. But I was one of the worst in my class at Vietnamese school before I quit. Students who have a background AND are taught the technicalities of their language are certainly poised to do well.

There are other countries in Europe and Asia where being bilingual (native language and English) is quite normal, and there are many who are trilingual. When I went to Malaysia, my taxi driver said his son was learning four languages, Mandarin, an Indian language, English and Malaysian. This was because he was of Indian origin, going to a Chinese school where Mandarin, English, and of course Malaysian was taught. And Malaysians have very good English.

Australia has a long way to go in LOTE education...

[bridgethuss]

i really wish i did french as a subject, my school doesnt teach it but i was too lazy to even look further into it.

[Eriny]

There are other countries in Europe and Asia where being bilingual (native language and English) is quite normal, and there are many who are trilingual. When I went to Malaysia, my taxi driver said his son was learning four languages, Mandarin, an Indian language, English and Malaysian. This was because he was of Indian origin, going to a Chinese school where Mandarin, English, and of course Malaysian was taught. And Malaysians have very good English.

Australia has a long way to go in LOTE education...

Totally! Countries with only one common language are a minority in the world. I think we lose out a bit, by not understanding a different language.

My language education has been disjointed, as is the norm, I think (I've learned Indonesian, Japanese, and Italian at school). Changing schools makes things really difficult! For instance, when I changed schools in grade 4 I forgot almost all of the Indonesian I had picked up in grade 3 and was put in a class with people who had been learning Japanese for four or five years (it was a composite class). I ended up stopping Italian after year 8 because I tended to do worse in that subject than in my others (it was probably a really bad reason to stop though).

I've started learning French last year, kind of as a hobby, as much as learning a language can be a hobby. I know that doing a language outside of a school setting makes it so there aren't as many incentives to do well, but I've found it more relaxing than what I found it in school. I'm not as afraid to make mistakes, which means that the mistakes I do make are actually corrected. I don't think I'd find it nearly as fun if I learned it in uni. And I think my understanding of English has gotten better too. But yeah, I'm not sure if gradual, relaxing language learning is the best way to have better outcomes in the study of LOTEs. If I was studying it in uni, or even in year 12, I'd probably know much more than what I do. However, it may be the best way to encourage students who find it 'too scary' or 'too hard' to continue studying them (provided they have enough interest, I suppose).

[IntoTheNewWorld]

I find that before year 11, progress in a LOTE is very, very slow, because 90% of the class just doesn't care. When VCE starts, and everyone who actually wants to learn is all grouped together, progress increases somewhat.

I also find that my understanding of English has increased, because I have another language to compare it to, and understand more about the mechanics of the language. I didn't know what a transitive verb meant until I learned it in Japanese.

I think a major reason for why students aren't interested is the way in it is taught. At the start it's taught not as a means of communication, but as a bunch of words, most especially at primary school and at the start of high school. No one can possibly become semi fluent like that.

Good on you for studying a language by yourself, you're giving yourself an advantage the vast majority of Australians do not have (but should). I think it's possible to study a language by yourself without a class, just more reliance on audio CDs and such. Rosetta stone sucks.

[dior1]

I find that before year 11, progress in a LOTE is very, very slow, because 90% of the class just doesn't care. When VCE starts, and everyone who doesn't actually wants to learn it is all grouped together, progress increases somewhat.

I cannot agree more with this! I have probably learnt more in Yr 11 than throughout prep - yr 10. I do Italian and am not a native speaker. Although I do have an italian background, it doesn't mean I can speak it fluenty and do excellent in the subject, its simply not true. But surely the scaling is an incentive to students

[/0]

The 'traditional' way of teaching language has been observed to be mostly ineffective. Despite this, it is still taught in most schools. Stephen Krashen, http://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash.html, developed a new system of acquiring a second language, in which students' grammar and punctuation were not forcibly corrected, but developed when the students are 'ready'. It emphasises a low-pressure environment in which communication can occur without fear; this increases confidence and willingness to absorb language.

It has been trialed several times with success... I only wish it could be accepted by more schools.