ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: MJay1993 on December 21, 2011, 11:49:31 am
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MOD EDIT: this topic has been split from the 'How did your cohort go?' thread. Feel free to discuss your own school in this thread :)
So the question being then..... how the hell did we (mhs) do so bad? o.O I honestly thought we had a cohort this year that could at least have matched it with last year's :(
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does the age have the top 20 schools (or whatever it is) in its paper today?
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So the question being then..... how the hell did we do so bad? o.O I honestly thought we had a cohort this year that could at least have matched it with last year's :(
No idea. We were supposed to be closer to the 2009 cohort, we are really down this year. It's pretty disappointing.
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I think we're like Melbourne Grammar this year. Had some really insane kids but the rest of the cohort wasn't that great though we never notice it...
MHS is 4th this year...
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/results-reflect-huntingtower-of-class-strength-20111220-1p401.html
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Yeah, I still can't find any official rankings or anything, but we were told in final assembly (an annual event where the principal seals the end of school year by highlighting our top scores to psychologically threaten and remind lower year levels that there are big shoes to fill in this factory line of 90+ ATARs) that we topped the state again.
Don't know if this has been posted yet, so here goes.
~15% ATARs over 99.
~88% ATARs over 90.
~43% study scores over 40.
Exactly 31 perfect study scores of 50.
And a median ATAR of 96.7 (which remains less than the AN median, yay!) :)
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Huntingtower is so bs, they had a cohort of like 20... Shouldn't be in that list:
(http://images.theage.com.au/2011/12/21/2851556/art-353-21vce2_ipad-200x0.jpg)
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Oh wow, sorry just saw the link.
That sucks for Melbourne High. Also can't believe Mount Scopus dropped so much either.
YOU ARE NOT A STATISTIC!
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^TBH pi, we're still 2nd in terms of gov. schools.
Why MacRob, why? :'(
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^TBH pi, we're still 2nd in terms of gov. schools.
Why MacRob, why? :'(
Coz we cool like dat.
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Nah man, MHS represent.
Although it'd probably have to do with
the release of too many awesome games this year.
I blame CoD, BF 3, Arkham Asylum among
many other things.
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^TBH pi, we're still 2nd in terms of gov. schools.
So? We wanted number #1, we are ALWAYS #2, its hard to get to number #3 for us in that category
Why MacRob, why? :'(
Several reasons I can think so:
1) They had a very good cohort - full credit to them, they deserve it
2) Our cohort was over-rated, we must have had a lot of disappointing scores :(
3) Our cohort is considerably larger, chop off our bottom 100 (ie. Mac.Rob cohort size), and we will nearly always win
4) This is just my opinion, but we offer BM and Mac.Rob don't. The bulk of people at mhs end up with low 40s or high 30s in BM (think that it was *easy*) with get scaled down and this reduces our median.
5) Our physics dep sucks, and let us all down (this is the most minor of the issues, but all our other deps are great)
I blame CoD, BF 3, Arkham Asylum among
many other things.
Then you might as well blame all other non-study stuff. Do realise that people in Mac.Rob do other stuff as well as studying, right?
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Well, there were lots of dud kids on methods and english.
I'm sorry i let you guys down...
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Well, there were lots of dud kids on methods and english.
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That's not very nice. I wouldn't call anyone a "dud" just because their SS is <40.
That's not the MHS way aes_999, sorry.
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^MHS complex man. U really feel down when u don't
get at least 40. Even then, 40 is brushed off as
a 'pass' in my head, due to MHS expectation.
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pi, just on points #4 and #5:
#4: I thought the rankings were determined by % of RAW study scores over 40, in which case having lots of kids get low 40's in BM would help, not hinder?
#5: Trust me, the physics department at MacRob is absolutely horrible too. My friend had to basically teach herself the course, since she didn't get a tutor. But in fairness, MHS has a larger physics cohort than MacRob so a crap physics department would affect stats a lot more.
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pi, just on points #4 and #5:
#4: I thought the rankings were determined by % of RAW study scores over 40, in which case having lots of kids get low 40's in BM would help, not hinder?
#5: Trust me, the physics department at MacRob is absolutely horrible too. My friend had to basically teach herself the course, since she didn't get a tutor. But in fairness, MHS has a larger physics cohort than MacRob so a crap physics department would affect stats a lot more.
#4 We have more 30s (esp in the 37-39 range), that drags us down. This point was just my opinion, I'm not sure if its even valid tbh :P
#5 The number of people in mhs doing phsyics is like 4x Mac.Rob's number though.
But these are minor points, poor subject selection is our fault. #3 is far more significant imo
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pi, just on points #4 and #5:
#4: I thought the rankings were determined by % of RAW study scores over 40, in which case having lots of kids get low 40's in BM would help, not hinder?
#5: Trust me, the physics department at MacRob is absolutely horrible too. My friend had to basically teach herself the course, since she didn't get a tutor. But in fairness, MHS has a larger physics cohort than MacRob so a crap physics department would affect stats a lot more.
#4 We have more 30s (esp in the 37-39 range), that drags us down. This point was just my opinion, I'm not sure if its even valid tbh :P
#5 The number of people in mhs doing phsyics is like 4x Mac.Rob's number though.
But these are minor points, poor subject selection is our fault. #3 is far more significant imo
Ahaha I don't know if you'll win just by cutting off 100 students. We can't really test it, but my hypothesis:
1. If you cut 100 students at random, then it will make minimal difference and MacRob will probably win.
2. If you cut the bottom 100 students then yeah, MHS will win, but that's not really fair, is it? MacRob has a smaller cohort, so if we, hypothetically and purely statistically, cut just the bottom 30-50 people then we'd do much, much better too.
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But why would we cut 100 random students? We could cut the bottom hundred wouldn't we, assuming that that is the same bottom 100 from the entrance exam (there would be a lot of similarities between the bottom 100 of the entrance and the bottom 100 of VCE imo).
It's all hypothetical anyway, but I think if we had a smaller cohort from the start, we would probably win.
EVEN IF that is true, there is no doubt that #1 is true, and that is that Mac.Rob deserved their rank, and I don't think my hypothetical rebuttal should stand in the way of that :)
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This is interesting, from The Age: http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/compare-school-scores :)
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Haha wow... Glen Waverley SC best non-selective government school! Surprising we JUST edged out McKinnon - hats off to them as well!
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10th/11th up from 27th/28th last year!!! :D AWESOME.
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I don't know what you guys are complaining about. #4 sounds pretty good when you have my school somewhere at 365. And our average SS was 25.
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Did some tinkering and came up with this:
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Did some tinkering and came up with this:
Is this for this years? Coz my school isn't right... don't know about the others...
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Did some tinkering and came up with this:
Is this for this years? Coz my school isn't right... don't know about the others...
Yeah, I looked at my school - it's the data for 2010.
edit: from just looking at a few random schools, median seems to be 2011 data, percentage seems to be older data.
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What is Melbourne Grammar ranked?
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Nope it's 2011 data, just ranked by Median SS, not % over 40.
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Nope it's 2011 data, just ranked by Median SS, not % over 40.
But the %40 data is wrong... it's 2010 instead of 2011...
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Dunno, I got the data from The Age
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Who cares? Really?
I saw this coming, predicted a low Median ATAR due to a range of things, the fact that we had an increased amount of people in for sport, and kids who didn't really care as much for school. But what's wrong with that? I had a great year and so did all my mates and I truly doubt they'd give a fuck that we were outperformed by two private schools that probably have much less students to deal with, same with MacRob who apparently embrace a much greater focus on academia. I doubt the school does either.
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Why don't they use median atar, isn't it the best indicator?
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wow, look at John Monash go! they're all year 11's as well!! :P
i actually wish i was a year younger so i could go there, select entry, science-based focus, close to my house, co-educational (really important), good classroom environment (or so i've heard)
ahhhhh, talk about a good school!!!! D:
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Why don't they use median atar, isn't it the best indicator?
it depends on what you define a good cohort as, whether it is the best which defines them, the good that defines them, the average, the bad or the improvement
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Why don't they use median atar, isn't it the best indicator?
MHS's median ATAR is an all-time low this year.
94.xx (forgot the decimals)
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Why don't they use median atar, isn't it the best indicator?
MHS's median ATAR is an all-time low this year.
94.xx (forgot the decimals)
I think its the second lowest in the last 20 years or something, but yeh, pretty shocking
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John Monash is looking pretty promising for next year haha, getting kinda worried about MHS making the top 3 next year.
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John Monash is looking pretty promising for next year haha, getting kinda worried about MHS making the top 3 next year.
Well ,their cohort was pretty small too (<50?), but what they did have did look strong (unlike Nossal High...)
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^Probably because John Monash kids are all aspiring
researchers / docs.
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John Monash did really well, the culture and atmosphere in that school is amazing. Interested to see how they do next year.........
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Why don't they use median atar, isn't it the best indicator?
I think it is to account for the kids who do well in subjects which scale down.
A person could achieve straight 45's in subjects that scale down 5-7 and have an ATAR lower than someone who achieved straight 35's in subjects that scale up 5-7.
Although the subject scales down because it is deemed "easier" to do well in due to competition, a score of 45 in that seems harder to achieve than a 35 in the other, in my opinion anyway.
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Nossal High is a joke LOL!
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John Monash is looking pretty promising for next year haha, getting kinda worried about MHS making the top 3 next year.
Well ,their cohort was pretty small too (<50?), but what they did have did look strong (unlike Nossal High...)
Not really fair - the students are still in year 10, so we don't know how they're going to perform in the next couple of years. Might turn out surprising us
EDIT: I'm talking about Nossal btw haha
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i think john monash is a bit overrated. Next year will be a true indication of how they'll go since all of their students are only year10/11 this year. As for nossal, their results in a few years time may be around the same as a glen waverley or a bit higher.
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Not really fair - the students are still in year 10, so we don't know how they're going to perform in the next couple of years. Might turn out surprising us
EDIT: I'm talking about Nossal btw haha
Ah, I thought they were yr11. That would explain their scores then. Why do they have so many 3/4 yr10s though? :o
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Not really fair - the students are still in year 10, so we don't know how they're going to perform in the next couple of years. Might turn out surprising us
EDIT: I'm talking about Nossal btw haha
Ah, I thought they were yr11. That would explain their scores then. Why do they have so many 3/4 yr10s though? :o
According to the The Age data, Nossal only had 7 people do a 3/4 subject.
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WAHOOOOOO!!! Go Melbourne Grammar!!!!
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Not really fair - the students are still in year 10, so we don't know how they're going to perform in the next couple of years. Might turn out surprising us
EDIT: I'm talking about Nossal btw haha
Ah, I thought they were yr11. That would explain their scores then. Why do they have so many 3/4 yr10s though? :o
Coz we da best. Nah most of the 3&4 Year 10s were doing Language and they are doing seven subjects anyway so there is still time.
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I was quite disappointed with Haileybury College.
I thought they were supposed to be one of the top schools in the state, yet they're not even in the top 10 this year...
But I'm happy with the Tyabb campus of Flinders College!
We scored a median study score of 31, beating our other two rival campuses 8)
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Yeah...wished Scotch did better :(
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lol my schools median was 25 hahaha
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I think you have to remember
these are kids in year 11 who are only doing 1-2 subjects, so they can really focus on them. Doing 5 subjects and juggling their demands is a completely different ball game.
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Too right, Jdog. But, that said, JMMS is very very smart indeed.
Hey, btw, we did beat MacRob in no. of 50s, 39-31. YEAH :)
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Too right, Jdog. But, that said, JMMS is very very smart indeed.
Hey, btw, we did beat MacRob in no. of 50s, 39-31. YEAH :)
It does help if a single student can score 4 50s in a year ;)
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Too right, Jdog. But, that said, JMMS is very very smart indeed.
Hey, btw, we did beat MacRob in no. of 50s, 39-31. YEAH :)
It does help if a single student can score 4 50s in a year ;)
Or if 2 of them can lol :P
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Thanks guys :) Remember tho, ther is always a bit of luck involved in any 50, so i guess i had my fair share of luck along the way
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4) This is just my opinion, but we offer BM and Mac.Rob don't. The bulk of people at mhs end up with low 40s or high 30s in BM (think that it was *easy*) with get scaled down and this reduces our median.
There are only 3 classes that do BM, each with less than 20 kids. Surely 60ish kids cannot pull down the percentage of study scores > 40.
Menang is right, it's based on raw scores.
Also, if for any specific reason it's because of the large amount of kids doing spesh, and with the difficulty of getting above 40 this year.
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Thanks guys :) Remember tho, ther is always a bit of luck involved in any 50, so i guess i had my fair share of luck along the way
Let's be honest, it's luck for every other guy but for Istamad it's their work ethic.
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Shattered for MHS, quite disappointing
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^MHS is still an awesome school,
no matter how bad our class may
perform academically this year.
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Not really fair - the students are still in year 10, so we don't know how they're going to perform in the next couple of years. Might turn out surprising us
EDIT: I'm talking about Nossal btw haha
Ah, I thought they were yr11. That would explain their scores then. Why do they have so many 3/4 yr10s though? :o
Coz we da best. Nah most of the 3&4 Year 10s were doing Language and they are doing seven subjects anyway so there is still time.
I actually started laughing when i saw our results, they where so shit haha. median ss as 31 means 3 people scored below average
^MHS is still an awesome school,
no matter how bad our class may
perform academically this year.
get over it, whether your number 4 or number 2 it doesn't change that your still a highly ranked school
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Do not understand why people are so obsessed with their school's ranking.
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Do not understand why people are so obsessed with their school's ranking.
Same reason people are obsessed with their favourite football team.
It's about having pride for your people, for your school, for your club.
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Do not understand why people are so obsessed with their school's ranking.
Same reason people are obsessed with their favourite football team.
It's about having pride for your people, for your school, for your club.
I do not have a favourite football team. I am not a very competitive person. I have pride for my school, but I do not think the good my school has done for people can be ranked. Small-Medium sized regional secondary school does not compare to all these schools, but I still have pride. :) It seems sort of odd to me to worry about percentages; it is all about doing your best. All cohorts are different and have different capabilities. I dislike the fact VCE is such a rat race.
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school pride.
good schools make you gain it.
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school is like family, you have a natural inclination to defend it, even when you know it is wrong or it might not be the best :P
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^MHS pride!
Honour the work, and the work will honour you.
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school is like family, you have a natural inclination to defend it, even when you know it is wrong or it might not be the best :P
^+1
I have spent too much time throughout my life defending my school -sigh-
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Hmm, my school has to defend itself. Thought we had the strongest year level for a while - that's what everyone (esp in the years above us) were saying. Apparently not. :(
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Hmm, my school has to defend itself. Thought we had the strongest year level for a while - that's what everyone (esp in the years above us) were saying. Apparently not. :(
dude, you and your co-dux practically ate all the 50s out there.
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Scotch probably had two really really excellent students, but I think Thushan is talking about the cohort as a whole.
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Scotch probably had two really really excellent students, but I think Thushan is talking about the cohort as a whole.
our ovearll cohort was still very very good,
just not as good as everyone expected. example english: we only had 5 50's but we expected 9-10 ish.
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yeah, to be honest, the same thing happened with our cohort- everyone was expecting at least 3-4 99,95s and a lot of 50s in the maths/sciences...but didn't turn out that way :(
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Hmm, my school has to defend itself. Thought we had the strongest year level for a while - that's what everyone (esp in the years above us) were saying. Apparently not. :(
dude, you and your co-dux practically ate all the 50s out there.
Says 2010 Dux of State...
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Well I'm super happy with the cohort this year! From Flinders (Tyabb Campus):
In 2010:
Median study score: 30
Number of 50's: 1 (VET Dance)
Highest atar score: 97.90
In 2011:
Median study score: 31
Number of 50's: 3 (VET Dance and two in biology)
Highest atar score: 99.55
Quite a large improvement if you ask me :)
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My school is ranked like 144, so I will make a "no comment"
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My school is ranked like 144, so I will make a "no comment"
Better than rank 152...
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Dude you are gonna get a 50 in Spesh, so u will push ur school up the ranks
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My schools average study score is 29.
One 99.95'er.
like 7 90'ers.
Average Western School is Average.
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My schools average study score is 29.
One 99.95'er.
like 7 90'ers.
Average Western School is Average.
How did one person score a 99.95????
What was the highest atar score the year before that?
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Heh, average SS of 29
No 99.95'ers.
<5 90'ers (Highest 93)
4% of SS >40.
Ranked ~300th in the state.
Below average school is decidedly below average.
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My schools average study score is 29.
One 99.95'er.
like 7 90'ers.
Average Western School is Average.
How did one person score a 99.95????
What was the highest atar score the year before that?
Was this school St Albans? If so, I met your dux at Melb Uni, she's very nice :D
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I loled at your confidence
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I loled at your confidence
If we are talking academics then it might be, but as a school i don't think its great.
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I genuinely chuckled out loud at this thread, my school was ranked 304th. Thank god that's over and done with :P
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I loled at your confidence
If we are talking academics then it might be, but as a school i don't think its great.
same could be said about all selective schools
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I loled at your confidence
If we are talking academics then it might be, but as a school i don't think its great.
same could be said about all selective schools
As an ex-MHS student, I disagree. We're better than the majority of private/independent schools imo.
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JMSS will give schools like MHS/MacRob a run for their money imo.
Probs going to be one of the best schools in the state.
I loled at your confidence
If we are talking academics then it might be, but as a school i don't think its great.
same could be said about all selective schools
As an ex-MHS student, I disagree. We're better than the majority of private/independent schools imo.
As an ex-MHS student, I agree with his disagreement. The school ethos is amazing and hardly anyone has the 'omfg gotta study or die' attitude some may make us out to have.
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^ Atmosphere matters - that's why I would send my hypothetical son to MHS, but I wouldn't put my hypothetical daughter into MacRob.
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imo, mhs and macrob are both overrated.
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On what basis?
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On what basis?
MHS students are academically strong.
But, could a school like Scotch or MGS could get more improvement out of a MHS student than MHS can ?
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What do you mean by "improvement"?
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I think he means certain other schools can transform a fairly average student into an A/A+ student. MHS' intake is mostly A/A+ students...
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What do you mean by "improvement"?
I was thinking whether someone with your obvious ability could have got an even higher ATAR at MGS than at MHS
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On what basis?
People have the idea that MHS and Macrob are the be all and end all, just beacuse they get the highest academic results. I think its something that happens in most indian and asian families. They fail to consider that when you go to these schools, you are constantly surrounded by the same sort of people. The diversity of environment is lacking.
Furthermore, they don't do nearly as well as you would expect, given that they academically select all of their students. Their median atar hovers around 93 94 95. Private schools, hover around 90 91 92, yet the added bonus you get in not only facilities, but pastoral care severly tips the scales. Id even say, that the top end in a lot of the top private school is better than the MHS top end.
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Just because the students are academically selected, that doesn't mean we don't have diversity. In fact, I'd argue that we'd have MORE diversity simply because we have students from a wider range of socio-economic backgrounds, ie. not the 99% "rich" kids as in the elite private schools.
On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
As for the top ends, thats probably true, however MHS and Mac.Rob can't put in the "effort" to "nurture" our best kids like what the elite private schools are known to do due to our lack of funds. Furthermore, thats not why our schools were made selective in the first place. We have a completely different ethos.
@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
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@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
I agree, its a difficult question, and perhaps it doesnt make much difference to ambitious and motivated students like your good self.
Perhaps an easier question would be whether MHS could have delivered better ATAR's for the Scotch student cohort than Scotch did.
.
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Just because the students are academically selected, that doesn't mean we don't have diversity. In fact, I'd argue that we'd have MORE diversity simply because we have students from a wider range of socio-economic backgrounds, ie. not the 99% "rich" kids as in the elite private schools.
On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
As for the top ends, thats probably true, however MHS and Mac.Rob can't put in the "effort" to "nurture" our best kids like what the elite private schools are known to do due to our lack of funds. Furthermore, thats not why our schools were made selective in the first place. We have a completely different ethos.
@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
I don't know if this is what jdog meant when he mentioned diversity of environment being lacking at selective schools, but my opinion is that almost every student at mhs/macrob is completely geared at doing their absolute best academically- as in, getting the best possible mark. Whereas at many private schools, of course there are quite a lot of students with that mindset, but also a lot who may have different priorities (although I can't really say that about my own year level where I went).
Also, a 3 - 4 even 5 score difference in median ATARs, doesn't seem that significant, given that selective schools take 3-4 of the top achieving students from private schools.
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Also, a 3 - 4 even 5 score difference in median ATARs, doesn't seem that significant, given that selective schools take 3-4 of the top achieving students from private schools.
In comparison the "elite private schools" JDog is referring to, I don't think MHS/Mac.Rob actually do take their best students actually. The people from my year level from Scotch were not the top achievers and I don't think we had anyone from MGS (to my knowledge). The number of students MHS (as an example) gets from the likes of Scotch, PEGS, MGS, Xavier, CGS are very few and probably add up to <7 combined (out of a cohort of 330+). And none of those tend to be in our top 10% of the cohort anyway (not in my year level at least). So I don't think your point is valid for the "elite private schools" as referred to by JDog.
It's probably true for the average private school (and public school for that matter) though :P
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The fact students tend to not want to leave the elite private schools should probably tell you something though.
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Also, a 3 - 4 even 5 score difference in median ATARs, doesn't seem that significant, given that selective schools take 3-4 of the top achieving students from private schools.
In comparison the "elite private schools" JDog is referring to, I don't think MHS/Mac.Rob actually do take their best students actually. The people from my year level from Scotch were not the top achievers and I don't think we had anyone from MGS (to my knowledge). The number of students MHS (as an example) gets from the likes of Scotch, PEGS, MGS, Xavier, CGS are very few and probably add up to <7 combined (out of a cohort of 330+). And none of those tend to be in our top 10% of the cohort anyway (not in my year level at least). So I don't think your point is valid for the "elite private schools" as referred to by JDog.
It's probably true for the average private school (and public school for that matter) though :P
Fair enough...though from our year level, and the few year levels above us, the girls who went to macrob were some of the academically strongest students. The fact students tend to not want to leave the elite private schools should probably tell you something though.
^+1
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The fact students tend to not want to leave the elite private schools should probably tell you something though.
That depends if it is the best students not wanting to leave or if their parents don't want them to leave.
If its the students (and many of the private top students don't even try out), then I don't see how that puts a bad light on selective schools. If they were to move schools, not only would that take them out of their comfort zone to adjust to a new school, but they'd also have to pay back all their scholarship fees (I'm assuming that most 99.90+ private school students have scholarships, which is probably true). It's just easier and cheaper to stay in their private school for them, and fair enough. Perhaps if they didn't have to pay back fees and such, selective schools might "steal" more of them.
edit: and this:
But, could a school like Scotch or MGS could get more improvement out of a MHS student than MHS can ?
@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
I agree, its a difficult question, and perhaps it doesnt make much difference to ambitious and motivated students
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Just because the students are academically selected, that doesn't mean we don't have diversity. In fact, I'd argue that we'd have MORE diversity simply because we have students from a wider range of socio-economic backgrounds, ie. not the 99% "rich" kids as in the elite private schools.
On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
As for the top ends, thats probably true, however MHS and Mac.Rob can't put in the "effort" to "nurture" our best kids like what the elite private schools are known to do due to our lack of funds. Furthermore, thats not why our schools were made selective in the first place. We have a completely different ethos.
@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools. Even the kids who are rich value that theyve been sent there. Of course there are those who are both rich and don't care about their education, but that will inevitably happen. And no I don't think that 3-4 difference in median atar is huge.
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Well, the 3 - 4 percent difference in median ATAR
is actually huge, depending where you want to go.
On Monash Clayton, getting a 90 - 91 instead of
94 - 95 means you miss the chance to do most double degrees
(except probably law double degree).
On Melbourne, 90 - 91 compared to 94 - 95 means you miss
out on commerce, which is rather inconvenient if you live near
to Melbourne and you don't get in, so it can mean a lot.
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Wait, are we arguing that Private School kidz are better than MHS/Mac.Rob kidz or are we arguing if it is worth attending MHS/Mac.Rob for the "3-4 median ATAR boost" (which made me laugh)?
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Wait, are we arguing that Private School kidz are better than MHS/Mac.Rob kidz or are we arguing if it is worth attending MHS/Mac.Rob for the "3-4 median ATAR boost" (which made me laugh)?
we are arguing, whether or not private schools (top ones) are better than macrob/melbhigh,. ON that topic we are talking about how much of a differnce there really is in terms of academics. , I think that the difference in academic results is not really much of an advantage.
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How do you know what the median atar in your school is?
If my school has a median study score of 31, what would you expect our median atar to be?
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I have a friend who attended a private school since prep, and gained a scholarship in year 5 at this school. He sat the MHS entrance exam in year 8 and he got in. He actually picked MHS; reimbursed the school for all the years he had his scholarship and went to MHS for three weeks. He came back after three weeks complaining about the lack of diversity and was at least $30,000 shorter, and decided to continue his education at this private school with full fees. He's not affluent, either. They're a working class family that make sacrifices to give their children the best opportunities possible, with a couple of cousins who have also went to MHS.
On the other hand, my girlfriend followed very much the same pattern but enjoys her education at Mac Rob and thinks it was a better choice to change. Essentially, the point I'm making is that it is all dependent on the student. If you enjoyed your time at school and got into the course you wanted or you're on the way to this goal -- who cares?
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Very true, Bismuth, sometimes Melbourne High just isn't for you, and fair enough too.
I know a guy who managed to get in mid year for year 11 last year merely by calling the school (yep, give it a go maybe, worked for him) and thought he'd give it a go because it gave him the opportunity to do subjects that he couldn't do at his other school. Needless to say within a week he dropped those subjects and his old school had Food Tech, so he left and I had two lockers for the rest of the year.
Gotta love Food Tech
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You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.
I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!
But my point isn't about whether or not the average elite private student is richer than the average selective school student, because that's pretty obvious imo, and that's not related to this debate at all.
And no I don't think that 3-4 difference in median atar is huge.
Here is where I think you are "grossly mistaken".
Here's one simple example of where a few extra ATAR points matter:
Well, the 3 - 4 percent difference in median ATAR is actually huge, depending where you want to go.
On Monash Clayton, getting a 90 - 91 instead of 94 - 95 means you miss the chance to do most double degrees
(except probably law double degree).
On Melbourne, 90 - 91 compared to 94 - 95 means you miss out on commerce, which is rather inconvenient if you live near to Melbourne and you don't get in, so it can mean a lot.
Otherwise, you didn't address this part of my post:
On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
Would you deny this? I know the ATAR is not the be-all-and-end-all of a future career, but is helps a crap-load. Far more than being in the school cricket fourth XI or attempting to play golf on weekends...
Just think, would you rather be the middle student at Scotch/MGS or the middle student at MHS/Mac.Rob?
Very true, Bismuth, sometimes Melbourne High just isn't for you, and fair enough too.
I can't deny this, because it is definitely true. The same could be said for any school though.
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I have a friend who attended a private school since prep, and gained a scholarship in year 5 at this school. He sat the MHS entrance exam in year 8 and he got in. He actually picked MHS; reimbursed the school for all the years he had his scholarship and went to MHS for three weeks. He came back after three weeks complaining about the lack of diversity and was at least $30,000 shorter, and decided to continue his education at this private school with full fees. He's not affluent, either. They're a working class family that make sacrifices to give their children the best opportunities possible, with a couple of cousins who have also went to MHS.
I'd have to disagree, I think MHS is a highly diverse school with students from many socio-economic and cultural backgrounds. Saying that MHS isn't going to suit everyone, a guy in my class left after the 1st week. But the fact that 99% of students stay must say something good about the school.
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On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.
The facilities you've said add to the rounded nature of the school, but Im more talking about the community aspect of the school, the opportunities it affords you. The opportunities in particular allow you do maanny more things that you might not have in MHS/Macrob.
The networks you build at these schools set you up for a long time.
ALso, its not that you wuold do better in your atar at these schools, it is that you would have an education that is not just focused on academics, instead you would have recieved one that touches on many more bases.
If you haven't experienced a private school, then I find it hard for you to argue against the advantages/diasvantages.
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I've experienced Private school, a "regular" public school, and MHS for 4 years.
This is what is wrong with what you are saying. I will break down your last post.
The facilities you've said add to the rounded nature of the school, but Im more talking about the community aspect of the school, the opportunities it affords you. The opportunities in particular allow you do maanny more things that you might not have in MHS/Macrob.
The MHS community is a huge aspect of the school. Our school regularly requires us to get involved with each other, both internally and externally to the school. Swimming, Cross Country, Rowing Fraternity, video games, studying @ state, sports (from fencing to chess to AFL)... community is huge at school. Regular meets at Millgrove camp to "fix up" the camp happen, bees around the school to plant and maintain the grounds.
I would argue the opportunities are larger at MHS/Mac.Rob, but I'll talk about MHS on its own; ever heard of the MHSOBA? No?
Right.
This organisation we join as graduates to the school (Old Boys), has thousands of members in any field - law, medicine, science, IT, business. Members date back to pre-50s, even. It's a huge organisation, providing a sense of community even after you graduate Melbourne High School. Job opportunities, internships, workshops, meetings, the MHS Masonic Lodge, clubs, golf... how does these not provide a community aspect to the school, or opportunities?
The networks you build at these schools set you up for a long time
Same with Melbourne High School. I'd say more, but I know Xavier and Scotch are pretty old too.
ALso, its not that you wuold do better in your atar at these schools, it is that you would have an education that is not just focused on academics, instead you would have recieved one that touches on many more bases.
What do you think Melbourne High does? Make us study 14 hours a day? No. The entire 4 years of my time at MHS, our principal gave hundreds of speeches. At least every time, he would mention how Melbourne high is improving and aiming to provide its students opportunities not focused at just a great education, but life experience, a well-rounded experience that you can take with you into tertiary studies and into life. I learned more about life and people at Melbourne High school than I did about English, Maths, Science... easily. Granted, the majority of your time at MHS will be focused on study, but your spare time at MHS will be utilised getting to know your fellow student, yourself and your life joys.
If you haven't experienced a private school, then I find it hard for you to argue against the advantages/diasvantages.
Challenge accepted.
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You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.
I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!
But my point isn't about whether or not the average elite private student is richer than the average selective school student, because that's pretty obvious imo, and that's not related to this debate at all.
And no I don't think that 3-4 difference in median atar is huge.
Here is where I think you are "grossly mistaken".
Here's one simple example of where a few extra ATAR points matter:
Well, the 3 - 4 percent difference in median ATAR is actually huge, depending where you want to go.
On Monash Clayton, getting a 90 - 91 instead of 94 - 95 means you miss the chance to do most double degrees
(except probably law double degree).
On Melbourne, 90 - 91 compared to 94 - 95 means you miss out on commerce, which is rather inconvenient if you live near to Melbourne and you don't get in, so it can mean a lot.
Otherwise, you didn't address this part of my post:
On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.
Would you deny this? I know the ATAR is not the be-all-and-end-all of a future career, but is helps a crap-load. Far more than being in the school cricket fourth XI or attempting to play golf on weekends...
Just think, would you rather be the middle student at Scotch/MGS or the middle student at MHS/Mac.Rob?
I think the critical point being missed here is that simply attending MHS/Macrob doesn't mean you're going to get that extra 3-4 points added onto your ATAR. You still have to work hard just as hard as you would at a private school. Whereas the middle student at selective schools would most likely get a higher ATAR than the middle student at a private school, there are sometimes selective school students who might get a lower score than their counterpart at private school...and in the same vein, often at the top end of the spectrum, private school students do better than their selective school counterparts. In the end, I think it comes down to the students themselves.
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You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.
I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!
I know this is off topic, but...having been to one elite private school...a good proportion of students were from families who sacrificed a LOT to pay for their children's education, and quite a few on particular bursaries and scholarships without which they wouldn't have been able to afford it.
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Why are we forgetting the facilities Melbourne High School has. We have on campus tennis courts, a hockey court, nets, basketball court (x2 including indoor), on campus oval, gym, swimming pool, arts centre, dozens of computer rooms + the school uses it's reputation to get their student's access to MSAC, three other ovals, Albert Park, the lawn bowls place used for the Comm Games, and even bloody Strike on Chapel Bowling.
MHS Networking is brilliant, you have three reunions within the first 5 years of leaving school, careers nights available for uni students to go to two years after the school, I got a job which lets me work from home for double what most earn in retail after talking to an MHS old boy, and we constantly get messages and emails about opportunities to continually network with alumni of the school. The alumni we have definitely is not unimpressive by any means either.
Now you tell me, how much better are private schools to pay the 20K more per annum? Sure, I'd probably like private school, but if I ended up going to uni knowing I'm in the same position as public school students, I would have to slightly question why I paid so much for my education.
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The entire 4 years of my time at MHS, our principal gave hundreds of speeches
And I slept through every one of them.
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Just quietly if you got a scholarship to an elite aps school (i.e. mgs, scotch, skc, xavier) and got an offer to melbourne high, where would you go? (considering the fact that with a scholarship you would be paying 2 -3 thousand more per year than mhs)
If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +. The reputation of mhs/macrob is more or less built on the students itself - they bottom end of their respective cohorts is signinficantly higher than any private school and so they should be as they are SELECTIVE. In terms of school atmosphere, you have got to be joking that mhs outclasses the spirit shared by private school kids for their school. Yeah, there are students who get involved in mhs events and sports etc but that is a relative minority compared to what you'd find at aforementioned private schools. You'd never find 2000+ kids to watch mathes of footy and rugby at mhs would you?
You talk about facilities: MHS does have some good facilities, but still doesn't compare to the elite private schools.
On the matter of old boys: yeah mhs produce a fair amount of succesful doctors, lawers, bankers etc. - but that won't help any student develop job connections if those successful students don't share a profound love for their alma mater. Private school kids do share a greater connection and pride than mhs kids (comparatively )towards their school, which enables future students to benefit through endorsements and job opportunities given back to school students/school leavers.
Another advantage of private schools is derived from the argument that they are for the "rich and filthy rich". Yeah, their is a student population that do fit this criteria. But they are a minority. Majority of kids parents have to work hard to send 2-3 kids to private schools. But nevertheless, the advantage further exists with networking opportunities amongst rich kids. Having mates whose parents are ceo's, firm owners etc. allows for an expansion of connections which further provides a leg up on other students.
Private schools do have significant benefits, because an education is not what you learn but what you experience- and it is that experience which you get from a private school, which superceeds mhs, imo. This is just an opinion.
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You've made a lot of assumptions there. Do you honestly think there are no CEO's, Firm Owners, or people high in Industry from MHS? There are, and through the Old Boy Association, which is very strong, you can do all the things that you listed. You've just assumed we have none of that.
Facilities that 'don't compare', what do you mean? Do you have magic grass on your ovals? Is your swimming pool filled with mineral water from the Himalayas?
To answer your scholarship question, I'd put it this way. If my son or daughter received a scholarship to one of those schools and an offer from one of the top selective schools, my decision will always be with the latter.
I respect that it's your opinion, but you've made assumptions on what MHS does not have.
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I'm curious...
Are you a former student of Melbourne High or Mac.Rob? They're two different mindsets from what I know, but they are both similar enough for me to say this: your perception of the average Melbourne High School student is blatantly wrong. Just like you say; "there is a student population that do fit this criteria". This applies to anything: Asian wizards, closeted white children with no social skills, chess masters, scientific geniuses, rich kids, poor kids, what have you.
Just quietly if you got a scholarship to an elite aps school (i.e. mgs, scotch, skc, xavier) and got an offer to melbourne high, where would you go? (considering the fact that with a scholarship you would be paying 2 -3 thousand more per year than mhs)
If I tried to get a scholarship, I would take it. I don't want to owe the money, and it would be great regardless I'm sure. However, I had my sights on MHS.
Yeah, there are students who get involved in mhs events and sports etc but that is a relative minority compared to what you'd find at aforementioned private schools. You'd never find 2000+ kids to watch mathes of footy and rugby at mhs would you?
You would, actually. There's a reason our inter-school cups with our NSW and SA equivalents have lasted what, over 100 years? So that's irrelevant to your point.
If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +. The reputation of mhs/macrob is more or less built on the students itself - they bottom end of their respective cohorts is signinficantly higher than any private school and so they should be as they are SELECTIVE.
Arguable, definitely. But you could also state the reputation of private schools is built on how much money the students' parents toss at the school. You'll definitely tell me that this isn't the case, but that's definitely the social impression of the "upper" private schools: Haileybury, Xavier, Scotch.
But nevertheless, the advantage further exists with networking opportunities amongst rich kids. Having mates whose parents are ceo's, firm owners etc. allows for an expansion of connections which further provides a leg up on other students.
I don't think you understand that this is also the case at Melbourne High? Having, say, the CEO of Linfox or the CEO of Kogan Technology is pretty useful - I know for a fact that Kogan is keen on MHS Old Boys. And they're just the most notable ones.
You talk about facilities: MHS does have some good facilities, but still doesn't compare to the elite private schools.
Arguable. We have some of the best facilities I can think of. Location, equipment, technology, quality. So what if we don't have a seperate rugby, soccer and football field? Our field is amazing, in plain sight and awesome to pass by on a train when the sun peaks over the Castle.
Private schools do have significant benefits, because an education is not what you learn but what you experience- and it is that experience which you get from a private school, which superceeds mhs, imo.
So basically what your opinion is, is that private schools are better because of the experience (which, as I've said before and you clearly didn't read, MHS is all about the "experience" not the cramming of knowledge down your throat) which you can only get from a private school because you pay for it. Is that right? That's my interpretation.
Okay then. Perfectly valid opinion, don't get me wrong, just seems a bit closeted. I'm not arguing that private schools are better or worse than MHS, keep in mind. It just seems to me that everyone is hating on a fantastic institution because MHS students are passionate about the place. It's an amazing place, and people just keep saying wrong things about it.
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Right now, I am so glad I went to neither MHS or an "elite private school". You guys have a bit of a complex about the importance of where you read and chattered. This thread is just cock jousting when you sit here comparing your tweed jackets. These schools are selective and privileged; all of them have their relative strengths and weakness for each individual. Your experiences are not their experiences.You are fortunate students, all of you who got the opportunity most do not have. Quit these lusty thrusting at one another and denying the fact it is just frottage with the occasional "touche".
I went to a regional school where we were lucky to have air conditioning, and you guys are comparing swimming pools. There were no social clubs, no study dates and traipses to the local lawn bowls or the library in the city. And yet I feel really thankful. I got an education; I did very well with my situation and I achieved to my own standards. All this rodomontade of what each school has is absolutely frivolous.
Be thankful and shut up.
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I wish I had gone to a school that couldn't afford a swimming pool because maybe then I wouldn't have had to lie about having my period every week to get out of swimming. My PE teacher probably thought I was going to die.
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If I tried to get a scholarship, I would take it. I don't want to owe the money, and it would be great regardless I'm sure. However, I had my sights on MHS
Fair enough, your decision and opinion. We all have our own desires.
You would, actually. There's a reason our inter-school cups with our NSW and SA equivalents have lasted what, over 100 years? So that's irrelevant to your point.
I'm speaking relatively, APS is the oldest and most prestigious competition. And no, i would not see 2000 odd students rocking u to a game of football between mhs and ahs, not now any way.
Arguable, definitely. But you could also state the reputation of private schools is built on how much money the students' parents toss at the school. You'll definitely tell me that this isn't the case, but that's definitely the social impression of the "upper" private schools: Haileybury, Xavier, Scotch.
thats neither here nor there. my point was that the school aids significantly in the development of the student
I don't think you understand that this is also the case at Melbourne High? Having, say, the CEO of Linfox or the CEO of Kogan Technology is pretty useful - I know for a fact that Kogan is keen on MHS Old Boys. And they're just the most notable ones.
again you missed my point, i said mates parents and families, not old boys.
Arguable. We have some of the best facilities I can think of. Location, equipment, technology, quality. So what if we don't have a seperate rugby, soccer and football field? Our field is amazing, in plain sight and awesome to pass by on a train when the sun peaks over the Castle.
MHS probably have the best facilities for a state school. But again, comparatively to private schools, mhs is below them.
So basically what your opinion is, is that private schools are better because of the experience (which, as I've said before and you clearly didn't read, MHS is all about the "experience" not the cramming of knowledge down your throat) which you can only get from a private school because you pay for it. Is that right? That's my interpretation.
It depends what you want to experience, MHS offers an experence that doesn't fit my taste, and is lacking of a fullness, but thats due to my personal desires. MHS however is foremost an academic school which places a firm focus on academics - yes their are sports and clubs, but there is a clear imbalance as to what is focussed upon.
Again this is my opinion, shaped by my own personal desires.
It's an amazing place, and people just keep saying wrong things about it.
its amazing becuse its what you want, so its all subjective in the end.
Anyway forget this argument, if you are of a certain mould you would prefer mhs to scotch, grammar, skc, cgs etc. and vice-versa. It just seems to me that mhs cater for amore specific type of student which limits the fullness of schooling life available (and mates at mhs can concur with me about that) - again, my opinion derived from personal desires.
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Right now, I am so glad I went to neither MHS or an "elite private school". You guys have a bit of a complex about the importance of where you read and chattered. This thread is just cock jousting when you sit here comparing your tweed jackets. These schools are selective and privileged; all of them have their relative strengths and weakness for each individual. Your experiences are not their experiences.You are fortunate students, all of you who got the opportunity most do not have. Quit these lusty thrusting at one another and denying the fact it is just frottage with the occasional "touche".
I went to a regional school where we were lucky to have air conditioning, and you guys are comparing swimming pools. There were no social clubs, no study dates and traipses to the local lawn bowls or the library in the city. And yet I feel really thankful. I got an education; I did very well with my situation and I achieved to my own standards. All this rodomontade of what each school has is absolutely frivolous.
Be thankful and shut up.
I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting the main points of this discussion. I think everyone here can agree that the best private schools have better facilities than MHS, this discussion isn't about arguing over the quality of the facilities at MHS compared to Scotch or MGS. The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.
I'm glad that you've seen success at your school but to criticise a debate on the false pretence that we're mostly comparing swimming pools and school ovals is to give a superficial and simplistic view of the debate whilst ignoring what is really being argued. I think this discussion is relevant rather than being frivolous as we're discussing what we feel makes a well rounded and complete education, we're not cock jousting and comparing tweed jackets.
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In addition to TheMirrorMan, no-one here would deny that attending an elite private school or a selective school hasn't been a privilege and everyone here is also thankful for that opportunity. And to think that we don't is really a misrepresentstion of not only this debate, but also of us.
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The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.
Not sure if "quality facilities" is important to a good education. A good education, relies essentially on a student's attitude towards their study. It relies on their motivation, determination and self-belief.
In the end, having great facilities, like swimming pools and ovals is not necessarily going to benefit an individual at VCE. Neither does new, colourful buildings, or beautiful grass or new projectors for classrooms. We have to remember that each individual is responsible for their own success, and facilities provided by a school can enhance their learning(so some extent) but it is in no means, essential.
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The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.
No, they aren't. If it were, the thread would have ended a while ago and Mech wouldn't have pointed it out. It's a fucking pissing contest no matter how your phrase it
If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +.
Do you honestly believe this?
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Can people just let it rest and agree that APS schools AND selective schools are great institutions that offer a lot of opportunities to their students?
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If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +.
If this actually happened, I wonder why Elite private schools are not the top school in Victoria, I wonder why MHS AND MACROB are?
^^. I think my point is made. i SHALL rest and agree that all schools offer great opportunities:)
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Not sure if "quality facilities" is important to a good education.
They're incredibly important and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. It's part of the reason why inner metropolitan melbourne dominates the ATAR rankings
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If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +.
If this actually happened, I wonder why Elite private schools are not the top school in Victoria, I wonder why MHS AND MACROB are?
MHS and MACROB are selective, whereas at the elite private schools you don't have to be academically strong to attend.
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I had a friend who got into mac rob and decided not to go. She goes to a private school (no scholarship) and is now one of the captains there for 2012.
On the other hand, I’ve got another friend who got into mac rob and decided to go because the atmosphere suited her perfectly and she loves it there.
My cousin went to a state school, got 97+ and enjoyed his time there too.
It’s definitely disappointing if your school doesn’t do or rank as well as you’d hoped, but it all comes down to whether or not you’re happy at your school. Too many assumptions and generalisations are being made about each, but each provide a different atmosphere and it all comes down to the individual and which place suits them better. The school you go to won’t make the atar for you, it comes down to your own perseverance and whether or not the school you’re in helps you achieve it. I’m all for friendly competition between schools, but honestly, what good is it doing trying to argue which is better? All have their advantages and disadvantages depending on the individual and what they like better in a school.
I know this is off topic, but...having been to one elite private school...a good proportion of students were from families who sacrificed a LOT to pay for their children's education, and quite a few on particular bursaries and scholarships without which they wouldn't have been able to afford it.
I completely agree with this. I think there’s a big generalisation on the wealth of the students who attend private schools. There’s always going to be students who are a lot wealthier then the average house hold, but that being said, there are plenty of students whose parents work hours on end just to send their kids there.
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Not sure if "quality facilities" is important to a good education.
They're incredibly important and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. It's part of the reason why inner metropolitan melbourne dominates the ATAR rankings
I'm deluding myself? Tell me, oh great sir, what EXACT FACILITIES are essential for a good education?
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I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting the main points of this discussion. I think everyone here can agree that the best private schools have better facilities than MHS, this discussion isn't about arguing over the quality of the facilities at MHS compared to Scotch or MGS. The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.
I'm glad that you've seen success at your school but to criticise a debate on the false pretence that we're mostly comparing swimming pools and school ovals is to give a superficial and simplistic view of the debate whilst ignoring what is really being argued. I think this discussion is relevant rather than being frivolous as we're discussing what we feel makes a well rounded and complete education, we're not cock jousting and comparing tweed jackets.
The real issue here is each of you wants to tote your anecdotes and how successful the school has been in providing with this 'holistic' education, and yet you do not realize that it is based on the individual. I would not prosper in a school that had an ethos of being sports orientated, as I am not a sports person. I would not prosper from having social clubs, ovals and what have you associated to such things; I would barely use them and I would benefit better from a large library and fast internet connection. The converse may be true for others.
This discussion is cock jousting. Like it or not.
In addition to TheMirrorMan, no-one here would deny that attending an elite private school or a selective school hasn't been a privilege and everyone here is also thankful for that opportunity. And to think that we don't is really a misrepresentstion of not only this debate, but also of us.
Most do not sound thankful at all. You sound like you want to take the opportunity to boast and claim you got the better overall education and go back and forth with the merits of each school. If you want to make this personal, so be it. I never targeted one person, I never called one person out on their comments - I made a general statement on the pages of this topic. If you want to feel like I took a swing at you, so be it.
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Not sure if "quality facilities" is important to a good education.
They're incredibly important and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. It's part of the reason why inner metropolitan melbourne dominates the ATAR rankings
I'm deluding myself? Tell me, oh great sir, what EXACT FACILITIES are essential for a good education?
Are you seriously trying to say that a school with half a dozen classrooms is going to be the same as a school with a multimillion dollar science center as long as the student really wants to do well? Quality facilities are extremely important in education, it's why schools and universities pour money into them...
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What are we comparing? Elite private schools to Weak Government schools? Which schools are we talking about exactly?
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I'm not intending to weigh in on this debate at all because I think that all in all it is a bit futile. No one can really definitively say whether selective entry schools are better than 'elite' private schools unless they have attended each selective entry school an each 'elite' private school. Which is impossible.
But having been to a private school I can't help but point out a few... misconceptions?
I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!
I'm not entirely sure of what you classify as an 'elite' private school but I go to a school which I think may fall into your classification. I can say first hand that there are many people at my school and other similar schools who are on scholarships. Most of them would be unable to go there without the scholarship. There are also a lot of people who's parents work extremely hard just to afford the fees. Yes there are numerous wealthy people there but they aren't always the majority.
I think the critical point being missed here is that simply attending MHS/Macrob doesn't mean you're going to get that extra 3-4 points added onto your ATAR. You still have to work hard just as hard as you would at a private school.
+1000. Also with that whole median ATAR argument, there are numerous 'elite' private schools that do get median ATARs in that 94/95 range. They may not get it every year but considering the people that they take in, I kind of don't see the credibiity to that argument. From what I percieve as others have reiterated, a select entry school takes in A/A+ students and a private school takes in students of all the range. Select entry schools output A/A+ students and many private schools output mostly A/A+ students.
But the fact that 99% of students stay must say something good about the school.
There are also a lot of people who get accepted and don't go. I'm not disputing your statement, but people shouldn't forget the number of people who don't want to apply and the number of people that get accepted and don't want to go. Selective entry schools aren't schools that everyone desires to go to and I often think that some people don't realise this.
That depends if it is the best students not wanting to leave or if their parents don't want them to leave.
If its the students (and many of the private top students don't even try out), then I don't see how that puts a bad light on selective schools. If they were to move schools, not only would that take them out of their comfort zone to adjust to a new school, but they'd also have to pay back all their scholarship fees (I'm assuming that most 99.90+ private school students have scholarships, which is probably true). It's just easier and cheaper to stay in their private school for them, and fair enough. Perhaps if they didn't have to pay back fees and such, selective schools might "steal" more of them.
From experiance, its the students. Numerous people in my year level alone were accepted into macrob and John Monash Science School (not MHS, its a girls school ahha). All those people's parents wanted them to leave and every single one of them told their parents no. And not all high achieving students at private schools have scholarships. The reason the people in my year level didn't leave was that they the select entry schools didn't appeal to them. There are other reasons that people do not want to go to selective entry schools, other than having to pay back scholarship fees.
You talk about facilities: MHS does have some good facilities, but still doesn't compare to the elite private schools.
As I said before, I can't pass accurate judgement on the facilities of such schools as I have never been there. But I would tend to think that this is correct. As far as I'm aware (this is the situation for my school, and I'm assuming for all others too) schools don't operate on a for profit basis. That ~$30K of school fees doesn't just dissipate into thin air; its used in facilities, co-curricular opportunities etc. I can't see how a government school could have the same facilities as a private school when they don't have that large amount of cash injection.
If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +.
If this actually happened, I wonder why Elite private schools are not the top school in Victoria, I wonder why MHS AND MACROB are?
^^. I think my point is made. i SHALL rest and agree that all schools offer great opportunities:)
It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen anywhere. No amount of private, selective or public tuition can help people who won't listen. Simply attending a place will never get you a certain score. It's the individual who's in control of the ignition, and its up to them what they want to learn and what they want to get out of the opportunities that their school offers.
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What are we comparing? Elite private schools to Weak Government schools? Which schools are we talking about exactly?
Initially, the debate was "Elite Private vs Selective"
A few earlier posts skewed that to "why people posting in this debate are arrogant un-thankful weasels" unfortunately. It was a fairly constructive debate until that point where the debate was labelled as "cock jousting"...
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Initially, the debate was "Elite Private vs Selective"
It was a fairly constructive debate until ...
Actually, people have been avoiding the real issue.
I can understand this, because its a tricky issue and hard to argue without crossing some boundaries.
I will try however.
Taiga said earlier, that if a son or daughter of his were to choose between a scholarship from an elite private school or an offer from a selective school, he would choose the latter.
This means nothing. The demographic which goes after private school scholarships is NOT different from the demographic which tries to get into a selective school. It is the SAME demographic. The only difference is that this demographic is mainstream in the selective school but marginalised at the private school.
None of the above reflects mainstream thinking at elite private schools. Most kids go to private schools at age 7 or 12. They dont go there for scholarships, and they cannot even apply for them in many cases, no matter how good they are academically.
It would not matter whether MGS or GGS tripled the fees to $100,000. Parents would still send their kids there for reasons other than those discussed on this thread. We all know what those reasons are. A selective school would never cross their mind as an option.
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I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.
The fact that anyone can get into MHS is definitely the best feature about it, we have lots of kids from poorer schools with lesser facilities and a lesser academic environment. Of my past schools, one was a shithole, one closed down, and the other two primary schools were regular primary schools. What I should have made more clear is that MHS has a lot to offer, resources on par, if not greater than that of a Private School, regardless of what these guys who have never visited MHS say.
Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work. I know people at private schools with a combined family income less than 100K who have their parents make so many sacrifices to send their kids there, I don't think everyone that sends their kids to such schools is that loaded.
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I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting the main points of this discussion. I think everyone here can agree that the best private schools have better facilities than MHS, this discussion isn't about arguing over the quality of the facilities at MHS compared to Scotch or MGS. The real issues being debated are whether or not having quality facilities is important to a good education and if so, how important it is along with differing views of the culture at each school and how it contributes to a well-rounded education.
I'm glad that you've seen success at your school but to criticise a debate on the false pretence that we're mostly comparing swimming pools and school ovals is to give a superficial and simplistic view of the debate whilst ignoring what is really being argued. I think this discussion is relevant rather than being frivolous as we're discussing what we feel makes a well rounded and complete education, we're not cock jousting and comparing tweed jackets.
The real issue here is each of you wants to tote your anecdotes and how successful the school has been in providing with this 'holistic' education, and yet you do not realize that it is based on the individual. I would not prosper in a school that had an ethos of being sports orientated, as I am not a sports person. I would not prosper from having social clubs, ovals and what have you associated to such things; I would barely use them and I would benefit better from a large library and fast internet connection. The converse may be true for others.
This discussion is cock jousting. Like it or not.
Of course the individual is important, a lazy person who does no work is going to fail VCE regardless of what school they go to. But does that mean that we can't compare and discuss the differences between MHS and APS schools? Does it mean that we can't debate what we feel makes for a good and well-rounded education that would be beneficial for most people? Does it mean that we can't clear up misunderstandings on both sides and reach some sort of common ground?
If you think we're all acting like a bunch of elitist tools then feel free to stop reading, there are many threads on this website. But some people do think that this issue is important. Quite frankly, to tell us all to "shut up" because this thread is not relevant to you or because you feel our debate is pointless is a bit rude. Not every thread is going to be relevant to you and this debate has been quite civil and generally reasonable. I've learnt a few things about APS schools from it and I'm sure others have also learnt a thing or two. I see no reason for it to stop.
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Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work.
poetic licence my friend :)
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by the way people, if any of you have a younger brother or sister starting Year 12 and are looking for an Oral Presentation topic, 'School Rankings' is as good a topic as any.
Tell the little brother or sister to get on AN and say something controversial and taiga will respond with the WHOLE presentation for you :)
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A few earlier posts skewed that to "why people posting in this debate are arrogant un-thankful weasels" unfortunately. It was a fairly constructive debate until that point where the debate was labelled as "cock jousting"...
And yet, really, that was not my wording at all. Except the cock jousting. That was all mine. ;) You are taking this personally, which is unfortunate.
I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.
It is not that some were privileged, it is that they are so full of it they cannot admit that others hold an opinion contrary to their own with regards to the merits of a school. You can have pride, but not this measuring contest; each person here holds an opinion relative to their needs and wants. There is no perfect niche for everyone. Let the ignorant people wallow in their ignorance of your school; you know your experiences and you know they were good and wholesome (and conducive to success). Enjoy it. Proving a point to people who are infatuated with their own alma mater wont convince them (however reasonable).
But does that mean that we can't compare and discuss the differences between MHS and APS schools? Does it mean that we can't debate what we feel makes for a good and well-rounded education that would be beneficial for most people? Does it mean that we can't clear up misunderstandings on both sides and reach some sort of common ground?
My point is there are a slew of pros and cons, each relative to the individual and their interests, strengths and desires. Also, their socioeconomic situation factors in. And misunderstandings in this thread have been based on individuals experiences; I could have went to the same school to you, and found it an absolutely atrocious experience whereas for you it was the epitome of a "well-rounded" education. You will just be arguing over your experiences and personal interests. State them, pros and cons, and then let people decide for themselves instead of making it read like it is some measuring contest of this "us versus them" attitude. But, ultimately, be thankful you got that privilege of opportunities.
Quite frankly, to tell us all to "shut up" because this thread is not relevant to you or because you feel our debate is pointless is a bit rude.
I am sorry I offended you with such mild language. You might not want to indulge in the humour (cheers to the person who shared this in IRC btw) I enjoy then. If you think my post was absolutely said in seriousness, with not an iota of humour mixed in there, I am sorry. I thought the likening of this thread to cock jousting, tweed jackets and malcontents was amusing (to which I never made any personal attack to one person, but a general blanket comment of this thread).
You are right there are other threads, and I should probably avoid some of the drivel in this one, but when I get peeved I tend to air it. However, this is a public thread, and I, too, am welcome to express my comments on the content of the thread. You are welcome to tell me to shut up and make sexual innuendos if you so wish also. Actually, I would enjoy that.
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I wouldn't put this as cock jousting Mech, I know it's fucking infuriating when you have to read how privileged other people are compared to what you may or may not have received, but in defence of myself, Tom, and pi, as students who carry a great pride in our school, I simply can't stand it when people go and claim it's overrated without being even in the most remote aspect aware of what goes on in selective schools.
The fact that anyone can get into MHS is definitely the best feature about it, we have lots of kids from poorer schools with lesser facilities and a lesser academic environment. Of my past schools, one was a shithole, one closed down, and the other two primary schools were regular primary schools. What I should have made more clear is that MHS has a lot to offer, resources on par, if not greater than that of a Private School, regardless of what these guys who have never visited MHS say.
Argonaut, I don't think your fee tripling analogy would work. I know people at private schools with a combined family income less than 100K who have their parents make so many sacrifices to send their kids there, I don't think everyone that sends their kids to such schools is that loaded.
I am not commenting without any substance. I have a sister who went to macrob. I sat the Melbhigh entrance test, because at one stage I was just like everyone else and wanted to get into the school. I visisted it so many times because I was in awe of its reputation. So I don't think you can claim I am commenting with having any knowledge of what goes on.
Im not saying MHS is a bad school by any means. Just that it is below the top private schools. And thank you for not being like the rest and assuming EVERYONE who goes to these schools are loaded and driving ferarirs, bmw, and mercs to school.
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So I've got the image of two cocks jousting in my mind and needless to say, I don't think I understand the metaphor
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So I've got the image of two cocks jousting in my mind and needless to say, I don't think I understand the metaphor
yeah look I'm not sure what it means either, but from what I gather I don't really want to be involved in it
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Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.
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Jesse Spencer (Chase from the show House) went to scotch as well :P
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Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.
Jesse Spencer (Chase from the show House) went to scotch as well :P
CONGRATULATIONS YOU ARE MY 1999TH AND 2000TH UPVOTE. (But you dont get any presents sorry, I'm a curry, too cheap)
I would add something useful to this discussion but the debate is over and I'm quite sure no one wants to ignite this again. (I'll add something if it means this post doesnt get deleted :( )
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Yay! Western suburbs government school !
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Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.
Is the 'rich guy' Lindsay Fox?
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Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.
Is the 'rich guy' Lindsay Fox?
Yeah.
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I have been to both a fairly elite private school and MHS.
I think the environment of MHS helps those who are smart but initially don't study as hard as they could to fulfil their potential. At their old school they are a big fish in a small pond, with minimum effort they top the class. Or, they are satisfied with being average, with no work at all.
Whereas when this student comes to MHS, they are with other high-achievers, and the friendly competition often stirs them to focus and put more effort into their studies. Marks at MHS are almost a status symbol within some groups.
Plus, when the majority of the students around you are working hard, hitting up State Library every second day, you can easily get pulled into this, thereby giving your best shot at VCE. Moreover, the academic guns at MHS help the lesser-achieving students very often. I learnt so much from my mates in every single subject I did.
At MHS there is definitely an aspect of "pulling up" the lesser students, through the work ethic, the help of having high-achievers around you, and the more competitive nature of the classroom when compared to other schools, including the elite private schools.
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Dean geyer went to Melb High and he is now starring in TERRA NOVA. Cate Blanchette went to Ivanhoe Girls and Methodist Ladies College and Nicole Kidman and naomi watts went to a selective school in sydney. Oh and that rich guy who owns the truck bussiness went to melb high. Ha.
Is the 'rich guy' Lindsay Fox?
Yeah.
Wow; I didn't kno he went to MHS!
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He dropped out, and become rich. WIN,