Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 08:52:08 pm
Is it something you sincerely want to do, for example to help people, or is it because of the pay or influence from anyone?
It is a pretty difficult thing to get in to, obviously, and those who have not got a clearly in score would indeed find it almost near impossible to get into through courses such as science at melbourne, and perhaps even more difficult if your umat result was not the best it could be.
I'm aware of this because my sister received an atar to be accepted into biomed at melbourne uni, and even though the umat is supposedly not as 'vital' as that at monash uni, she never did get into medicine, but instead is now 22 and is hoping to god gets into a phd focusing on bioethics or something.
Why not courses such as dentistry or engineering? I mean dentistry is still a course where you help people, yet never seems to get as much popularity as with medicine, and engineering is one of the most challenging courses, especially civil with the mathematics involved. I mean these jobs do get an equal/ near pay to medicine.
I've posted this because I want to hear your opinions.
Btw, if you have qualified for medicine or whatever, congratulations! :)
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 08:59:06 pm
To save/help people, the money, the security, and it'll probably be more fun than other careers I have thought about (I hope). I want to have a family and be well off as well!
vs dentistry: dentists don't really 'save' people, and I think being a dentist would be pretty boring.
vs engineering: I have definitely thought about this one, and if I didn't get into med I would probably be doing this. The problem is it doesn't offer the money (and maybe security) that medicine offers.
I have also considered PhDs in maths or physics, for research, but again, I don't think I would have much job satisfaction from doing this..
Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 09:00:52 pm
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 09:02:29 pm
Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 09:02:40 pm
Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 09:03:39 pm
Post by: mr.politiks on December 22, 2011, 09:09:49 pm
- Medicine can be exhilirating. It is rapidly moving, your learning is lifelong, and the job involves a high level of practicality and hands-on activity. It is rarely monotonous or boring.
- Medicine is usually intriguing: It is really diverse, and the career is heavily associated with problem soliving, application of knowledge to real life situations etc.
- Medicine is often viewed as fulfilling because you interact with and assist a diverse range of people at a face to face and direct level.
Just thought that some of these reasons might help :)
Post by: abd123 on December 22, 2011, 09:20:41 pm
I don't know if many people are passionate about it.
If its passion for em, they should go ahead and chase their dreams :).
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 09:31:59 pm
I think why so many people are drawn to it compared to other professions is:
- Medicine can be exhilirating. It is rapidly moving, your learning is lifelong, and the job involves a high level of practicality and hands-on activity. It is rarely monotonous or boring.
- Medicine is usually intriguing: It is really diverse, and the career is heavily associated with problem soliving, application of knowledge to real life situations etc.
- Medicine is often viewed as fulfilling because you interact with and assist a diverse range of people at a face to face and direct level.
Just thought that some of these reasons might help :)
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.
Firstly, engineering is also lifelong learning, even moreso than medicine because technology becomes obsolete every few years.
On your second point, the entire profession of engineering is based on applying knowledge.
On your third point, I agree with you.
People think doctors are respected and their job is full of cheer and goodwill but in reality, it's nothing like that. My GP told me that unless you have a personal desire to study medicine, completely uninfluenced by your parents/teachers, it will be the worst decision you make in your life. You miss out almost entirely on family life as you are continuously working, the pay is crap for the hours you work and patients are constantly criticising you and the threat of litigation plays on your mind non-stop. But if you genuinely have a desire to help someone, you'd see this as the only life for you. If you think you're going to enjoy this profession and bask in the sunlight of your prestige, you are wrong.
So why do so many people want to do it? As I said, prestige and their inability to tell their parents that they're making their own decisions in life.
Say whatever you like, but at the end of the day, doctors have to put their hands up a man's anus when need-be, is it really a desire of applying problems and lifelong learning that prompts them to choose this?
Post by: mr.politiks on December 22, 2011, 09:42:03 pm
Quote
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.
Firstly, engineering is also lifelong learning, even moreso than medicine because technology becomes obsolete every few years.
On your second point, the entire profession of engineering is based on applying knowledge.
On your third point, I agree with you.
People think doctors are respected and their job is full of cheer and goodwill but in reality, it's nothing like that. My GP told me that unless you have a personal desire to study medicine, completely uninfluenced by your parents/teachers, it will be the worst decision you make in your life. You miss out almost entirely on family life as you are continuously working, the pay is crap for the hours you work and patients are constantly criticising you and the threat of litigation plays on your mind non-stop. But if you genuinely have a desire to help someone, you'd see this as the only life for you. If you think you're going to enjoy this profession and bask in the sunlight of your prestige, you are wrong.
So why do so many people want to do it? As I said, prestige and their inability to tell their parents that they're making their own decisions in life.
Say whatever you like, but at the end of the day, doctors have to put their hands up a man's anus when need-be, is it really a desire of applying problems and lifelong learning that prompts them to choose this?
Whoa man.
Notice that I was talking about why so many people are drawn to med. I was talking about anyone who is genuinely passionate about it, regardless of asian background or no.
Also, I wasn't trying to compare Engineering and Med, it is true that Engineering displays many of the same things :)
The third point, on which you agree, is the clincher (for many people). If you really want to compare Med to other professions, then this is what will stand out.
Also, I completely agree with your last point. Medicine is a challenge, and you make sacrifices for your passion. You need the personal desire. If you go in with the wrong perception then you will be surprised. I encourage everyone deciding to consider factors such as you have listed (stress, time commitement, work life balance, continous work etc.)
Post by: b^3 on December 22, 2011, 09:45:29 pm
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.Seriously try not to stereotype people without even knowing them personally. Not everyone falls into a collective group, not everyone is aiming to do med because of their parents.
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 09:49:05 pm
Post by: mr.politiks on December 22, 2011, 09:51:06 pm
My own reasons are not to please my parents, and my parents have even told me to think twice due to the challenges in the past. My own reasons are based on my personal experiences.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 09:52:17 pm
QuoteHonestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.
Firstly, engineering is also lifelong learning, even moreso than medicine because technology becomes obsolete every few years.
On your second point, the entire profession of engineering is based on applying knowledge.
On your third point, I agree with you.
People think doctors are respected and their job is full of cheer and goodwill but in reality, it's nothing like that. My GP told me that unless you have a personal desire to study medicine, completely uninfluenced by your parents/teachers, it will be the worst decision you make in your life. You miss out almost entirely on family life as you are continuously working, the pay is crap for the hours you work and patients are constantly criticising you and the threat of litigation plays on your mind non-stop. But if you genuinely have a desire to help someone, you'd see this as the only life for you. If you think you're going to enjoy this profession and bask in the sunlight of your prestige, you are wrong.
So why do so many people want to do it? As I said, prestige and their inability to tell their parents that they're making their own decisions in life.
Say whatever you like, but at the end of the day, doctors have to put their hands up a man's anus when need-be, is it really a desire of applying problems and lifelong learning that prompts them to choose this?
Whoa man.
Notice that I was talking about why so many people are drawn to med. I was talking about anyone who is genuinely passionate about it, regardless of asian background or no.
Also, I wasn't trying to compare Engineering and Med, it is true that Engineering displays many of the same things :)
The third point, on which you agree, is the clincher (for many people). If you really want to compare Med to other professions, then this is what will stand out.
Also, I completely agree with your last point. Medicine is a challenge, and you make sacrifices for your passion. You need the personal desire. If you go in with the wrong perception then you will be surprised. I encourage everyone deciding to consider factors such as you have listed (stress, time commitement, work life balance, continous work etc.)
I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is that if people were pushed into do engineering and engineering had a bigger pay-packet as well as the prestige factor, all of a sudden everyone would want to do that. We have way way way too many people who want to do medicine for the wrong reasons, money and women. I seriously doubt your average med hopeful cares about whether they will be applying problem solving and patient intercourse.
@Istafa, I'm not saying specifically you, I'm saying there are A LOT of students doing medicine due to their parents and outlined reasons.
Post by: burbs on December 22, 2011, 09:52:52 pm
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 09:53:21 pm
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.lol what are you on about
generalise much
I doubt 90% of the asian population in australia is or were extremely poor and all strive to become doctors so they can break so called poverty cycle and help their relatives back in their homeland
there are far better careers than medicine in terms of earning money, and they do not require extremes such as 'putting your hands up a man's anus'
have you ever considered people that want to be doctors have altruistic values? such people exist, and it's more than 10% of the population of high achieving Asian Australians surely..
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 09:58:44 pm
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy.wdf?
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:02:48 pm
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy.wdf?
Truetears, can you explain to me why there is such a correlation between Asian students and medicine then?
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 10:03:41 pm
ur 99% sure is my 1% sure
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:04:55 pm
i aint explaining shit about correlation, i was just wdfing about how stupid that statement was
So we have two random Indian students who BOTH want to do medicine and you think parents aren't a factor?
Look at the acinod thread, nuff said.
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 10:05:54 pm
A 2 person sample space is not a very good sample space.
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 10:06:33 pm
read the statement you just posted, then read it again and realise how stupid it was.
EDIT: let me break it down to you why it's such a retarded statement kk?
ok sure some parents will be happy if their child does med, but you said "99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy", so you're a mind reader? can read exactly into other people's mind and find their reason for doing med?
just saying, i'm asian, and if I did med, my parents would be far from happy ;)
coolstorybro
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:08:20 pm
When I looked at the facebook group for MD cohort, only about 30-40% of it was Asian.
A 2 person sample space is not a very good sample space.
"Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. "
What's wdf about that?
@dc302, at my school, 11/23 students in my Specialist maths class were Indian. All 11 sat the UMAT and wanted to study medicine. Of the other 12, 3 sat UMAT and were considering medicine. Explain that to me if it's not something to do with parents.
Post by: b^3 on December 22, 2011, 10:08:39 pm
2 random Indian students? Where are you getting this from, you can't just take two random students and make up the results. This isn't real data. Not every Indian student wants to do med.i aint explaining shit about correlation, i was just wdfing about how stupid that statement was
So we have two random Indian students who BOTH want to do medicine and you think parents aren't a factor?
Look at the acinod thread, nuff said.
When I looked at the facebook group for MD cohort, only about 30-40% of it was Asian.That is more like real data (all we could go through all the verification issue e.t.c)
A 2 person sample space is not a very good sample space.
EDIT: 1500th post.
Post by: jane1234 on December 22, 2011, 10:10:45 pm
Honestly, there are heaps of things about med that appeal to me. Money is least relevant, I'd still want to do it even if it was one of the lower paying jobs. I geniunely want to have a job that directly influences people's lives, I like the leadership aspect of it, and the fact that for the most part it won't be a monotonous, boring job. I like the research opportunities, and I have a geniune interest in diseases and anatomy and all that.
I know that there will be aspects of it which I'll probably hate (ugh, paperwork), but for the most part I think it will be a rewarding and interesting career.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:11:23 pm
2 random Indian students? Where are you getting this from, you can't just take two random students and make up the results. This isn't real data. Not every Indian student wants to do med.i aint explaining shit about correlation, i was just wdfing about how stupid that statement was
So we have two random Indian students who BOTH want to do medicine and you think parents aren't a factor?
Look at the acinod thread, nuff said.When I looked at the facebook group for MD cohort, only about 30-40% of it was Asian.That is more like real data (all we could go through all the verification issue e.t.c)
A 2 person sample space is not a very good sample space.
Samad and Istafa (Apologies if spelt incorrectly) are the two, I was talking to him prior.
I never said Asian students were good at getting into medicine, just said a lot of them are pressured to do it.
Post by: SDPHD on December 22, 2011, 10:11:57 pm
Samad and Istafa (Apologies if spelt incorrectly) are the two, I was talking to him prior.
They're not Indian (if that gives/takes to/from what you're putting forward).
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:13:52 pm
Okay, first off I don't have Asian/Indian parents so that can't be it. Secondly, I'm a girl so I definitely don't want to do medicine to pick up chicks. So... clearly your stereotypes are far from accurate.
Honestly, there are heaps of things about med that appeal to me. Money is least relevant, I'd still want to do it even if it was one of the lower paying jobs. I geniunely want to have a job that directly influences people's lives, I like the leadership aspect of it, and the fact that for the most part it won't be a monotonous, boring job. I like the research opportunities, and I have a geniune interest in diseases and anatomy and all that.
I know that there will be aspects of it which I'll probably hate (ugh, paperwork), but for the most part I think it will be a rewarding and interesting career.
What the hell? What nationality are Samad/Istafa? If you say Lankan/Bangaldeshi, more or less the same deal there.
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 10:14:40 pm
lol they are twins, what do you expect? also iirc they are pakistanii aint explaining shit about correlation, i was just wdfing about how stupid that statement was
So we have two random Indian students who BOTH want to do medicine and you think parents aren't a factor?
Look at the acinod thread, nuff said.
Fairly sure the med cohort is much more diverse
either you're trolling or are very ... close-minded.. na can't think of the right word. Blunt perhaps
Post by: Stick on December 22, 2011, 10:16:22 pm
I think why so many people are drawn to it compared to other professions is:
- Medicine can be exhilirating. It is rapidly moving, your learning is lifelong, and the job involves a high level of practicality and hands-on activity. It is rarely monotonous or boring.
- Medicine is usually intriguing: It is really diverse, and the career is heavily associated with problem soliving, application of knowledge to real life situations etc.
- Medicine is often viewed as fulfilling because you interact with and assist a diverse range of people at a face to face and direct level.
Just thought that some of these reasons might help :)
Honestly, say whatever you want but I'm 99% sure you want to do medicine because it'll make your parents happy. In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life. That's why so many parents pressure their kids to do medicine and why 90% of high-achieving Asian students want to do medicine.
Firstly, engineering is also lifelong learning, even moreso than medicine because technology becomes obsolete every few years.
On your second point, the entire profession of engineering is based on applying knowledge.
On your third point, I agree with you.
People think doctors are respected and their job is full of cheer and goodwill but in reality, it's nothing like that. My GP told me that unless you have a personal desire to study medicine, completely uninfluenced by your parents/teachers, it will be the worst decision you make in your life. You miss out almost entirely on family life as you are continuously working, the pay is crap for the hours you work and patients are constantly criticising you and the threat of litigation plays on your mind non-stop. But if you genuinely have a desire to help someone, you'd see this as the only life for you. If you think you're going to enjoy this profession and bask in the sunlight of your prestige, you are wrong.
So why do so many people want to do it? As I said, prestige and their inability to tell their parents that they're making their own decisions in life.
Say whatever you like, but at the end of the day, doctors have to put their hands up a man's anus when need-be, is it really a desire of applying problems and lifelong learning that prompts them to choose this?
That's why Universities interview medicine students. :P They might be the smartest students with great ATARs and UMAT/GAMSAT scores but it's clear if they are truly passionate about medicine in the interviews. You need to have the right personality to do medicine and a lot of these kids who are forced just don't and are unlikely to make it into medicine anyway.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:18:05 pm
lol they are twins, what do you expect? also iirc they are pakistanii aint explaining shit about correlation, i was just wdfing about how stupid that statement was
So we have two random Indian students who BOTH want to do medicine and you think parents aren't a factor?
Look at the acinod thread, nuff said.
Fairly sure the med cohort is much more diverse
either you're trolling or are very ... close-minded.. na can't think of the right word. Blunt perhaps
My point is that a lot of students pick medicine because of money and power. This is effectively why it is such a big deal in Asia because most people have such a huge lack of those two and medicine is a way to a good life. I never said all students who did medicine wanted money and power. I said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all. I think you'll find it hard to disagree with this based on the Acinod thread and the empathy many of you guys had.
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 10:22:15 pm
I said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.Prove it? By proof I mean real statistical evidence, not some bs like:
I think you'll find it hard to disagree with this based on the Acinod thread and the empathy many of you guys had.No I don't think that's very hard to disagree at all, that's one thread, on a VCE forum, in Victoria, Australia. Does that suffice to support the claim you made above? Don't think so.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:25:25 pm
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
Post by: pi on December 22, 2011, 10:27:23 pm
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 10:30:14 pm
Post by: nubs on December 22, 2011, 10:30:28 pm
It is a pretty difficult thing to get in to, obviously, and those who have not got a clearly in score would indeed find it almost near impossible to get into through courses such as science at melbourne, and perhaps even more difficult if your umat result was not the best it could be.
wait, are you saying it's harder to get into medicine through Science than it is through Biomedicine?
EDIT:
I'm interested in medicine purely because I find the whole thing interesting, and gives me a vast range of specialisations. It seems as if the learning will NEVER stop, and I love knowledge when it's related to science and maths
Why not dentistry? It seems so narrow and particular, and I don't really find that aspect attractive or interesting.
Job security also comes into the mix, but it isn't a significant factor
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 10:31:47 pm
It is a pretty difficult thing to get in to, obviously, and those who have not got a clearly in score would indeed find it almost near impossible to get into through courses such as science at melbourne, and perhaps even more difficult if your umat result was not the best it could be.
wait, are you saying it's harder to get into medicine through Science than it is through Biomedicine?
I think he is comparing grad entry to direct entry.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:32:38 pm
Re: topic
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
OK, Can you honestly say your parents have never suggested that you study medicine?
Where did I say that 99% of students are doing it for parents? I said that I am 99% sure due to the fact that TWO separate individuals picked medicine without hesitation, I find it unlikely given that they could succeed in any field they wanted.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 10:34:13 pm
http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Motivation_of_Asian_Americans_to_Study_Medicine_A_Pilot_Studythat's quite a nice journal you have there, however i'd like to point out something ;)
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
did you ever bother to check out the sample size?
"The study target population consisted of 29 first and second year students self-identifying their race as “Asian.” The study sample consisted of 10 first year (M1) and second year (M2) Asian American medical students, comprising about one-third of the Asian American students in first or second year for the studied school. "
is that sufficient evidence to support your claim of
I said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.?
So I presume your definition of "large amount" of students of asian decent is comprised around 10 or so people?
nice... do the same survey in China and then see what you get ;)
look man i agree to some of the points you've said, but some of the ridic statements that you made are just plain stupid lol
I end my argument here, as i feel like discussing this idea further makes me dumber,
Post by: pi on December 22, 2011, 10:34:39 pm
Re: topic
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
OK, Can you honestly say your parents have never suggested that you study medicine?
Of course they have, what type of parent DOESN'T suggest career pathways for their children?
They also suggested (based on my interests) to become an engineer, actuary, science researcher and a dentist. I made my own decisions after that.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 10:36:28 pm
Post by: Starlight on December 22, 2011, 10:37:34 pm
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 10:38:46 pm
Re: topic
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
OK, Can you honestly say your parents have never suggested that you study medicine?
Where did I say that 99% of students are doing it for parents? I said that I am 99% sure due to the fact that TWO separate individuals picked medicine without hesitation, I find it unlikely given that they could succeed in any field they wanted.
Oh sorry, misread that about the 99%.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:45:36 pm
Re: topic
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
OK, Can you honestly say your parents have never suggested that you study medicine?
Where did I say that 99% of students are doing it for parents? I said that I am 99% sure due to the fact that TWO separate individuals picked medicine without hesitation, I find it unlikely given that they could succeed in any field they wanted.
Oh sorry, misread that about the 99%.
It's OK. pi, didn't you say in another thread you wanna do maths at University but your parents don't allow you?
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Post by: Hellrocks on December 22, 2011, 10:48:47 pm
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:52:07 pm
http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Motivation_of_Asian_Americans_to_Study_Medicine_A_Pilot_Studythat's quite a nice journal you have there, however i'd like to point out something ;)
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
did you ever bother to check out the sample size?
"The study target population consisted of 29 first and second year students self-identifying their race as “Asian.” The study sample consisted of 10 first year (M1) and second year (M2) Asian American medical students, comprising about one-third of the Asian American students in first or second year for the studied school. "
is that sufficient evidence to support your claim ofI said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.?
So I presume your definition of "large amount" of students of asian decent is comprised around 10 or so people?
nice... do the same survey in China and then see what you get ;)
I end my argument here, as i feel like discussing this idea further makes me dumber,, f(x) my intelligence function and T the time I spend reading your claims.
9/10 of the students said that family aspirations were for them to be a doctor. Argue with that big boy.
Post by: MJRomeo81 on December 22, 2011, 10:53:01 pm
However I don't understand why people talk about the so called benefits of following such a career path. Medicine is an emotionally and psychologically draining career.
There is no money. There is no prestige.
Do you like being shafted to the sticks? Get used to it.
Do you mind being blamed by stupid patients and their equally stupid family? Get used to it.
You are NOT likely to be working in metro cities for long. They train excess number of doctors to be chucked to places that has only 2500 people, 6hrs drive from nearest regional city after internship. Say goodbye to your family and friends.
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 10:53:11 pm
oh my god dudeRe: topic
For a number of reasons, I guess I've always been a Science kid and furthermore, have always relished a challenge and a new learning experience in this field. Medicine does this for me, it is a dynamic field that is constantly mentally stimulating. This combined with the patient and colleague interactions, makes it the most challenging and interesting profession around. Additionally, any hesitations I had about Medicine immediately disappeared after my week at the RCH, the environment was simply inspiring, to say the least.
Yeh, so that's pretty much it :P
OK, Can you honestly say your parents have never suggested that you study medicine?
Where did I say that 99% of students are doing it for parents? I said that I am 99% sure due to the fact that TWO separate individuals picked medicine without hesitation, I find it unlikely given that they could succeed in any field they wanted.
i seriously cannot take you anymore
so im going to be like you
I'm 99% sure you have no idea what you're talking about and you hold some bitter resentment to prospective med students of asian ethnicity for not being able to get into medicine yourself. 1% says that your trolling
look at this forum, 98% of it are top achievers, wise thinkers, intelligent folk of all culture and of all region
and not one person here agrees with you, so i think it's fair to say that your entire opinion on this matter is invalid
nice subs man, i bet you did spesh for the scale as well cause who does literature - the art of english and specialist maths?
look at that, u did bus man and got 47, you obviously like the way money goes around you probably just want a job for the money and power. wowzors you charge 50 bucks for your first lesson - thats more than 100% of the people offering tutoring on this website. i'm 99% sure you just want to tutor for the money and no other reason, you probably dont even care about your students cause if you did why would you do bus man and charge $50? Coincidence? I think not.
yea see how ridiculous you sound with your staggering figures, exaggerations and generalisations
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 10:55:02 pm
nope im not arguing against off topic statements, read what i said, and read what u said, dont feel the need to explain again ;)http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Motivation_of_Asian_Americans_to_Study_Medicine_A_Pilot_Studythat's quite a nice journal you have there, however i'd like to point out something ;)
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
did you ever bother to check out the sample size?
"The study target population consisted of 29 first and second year students self-identifying their race as “Asian.” The study sample consisted of 10 first year (M1) and second year (M2) Asian American medical students, comprising about one-third of the Asian American students in first or second year for the studied school. "
is that sufficient evidence to support your claim ofI said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.?
So I presume your definition of "large amount" of students of asian decent is comprised around 10 or so people?
nice... do the same survey in China and then see what you get ;)
I end my argument here, as i feel like discussing this idea further makes me dumber,
9/10 of the students said that family aspirations were for them to be a doctor. Argue with that big boy.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 10:58:39 pm
nope im not arguing against off topic statements, read what i said, and read what u said, dont feel the need to explain again ;)http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Motivation_of_Asian_Americans_to_Study_Medicine_A_Pilot_Studythat's quite a nice journal you have there, however i'd like to point out something ;)
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
did you ever bother to check out the sample size?
"The study target population consisted of 29 first and second year students self-identifying their race as “Asian.” The study sample consisted of 10 first year (M1) and second year (M2) Asian American medical students, comprising about one-third of the Asian American students in first or second year for the studied school. "
is that sufficient evidence to support your claim ofI said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.?
So I presume your definition of "large amount" of students of asian decent is comprised around 10 or so people?
nice... do the same survey in China and then see what you get ;)
I end my argument here, as i feel like discussing this idea further makes me dumber,
9/10 of the students said that family aspirations were for them to be a doctor. Argue with that big boy.
You're saying the sample space is too small for the argument to be valid. I think you're clutching at straws, if they felt they needed a larger sample space for accurate results they probably would've got more students. I find the findings valid.
Post by: b^3 on December 22, 2011, 11:02:05 pm
Post by: dc302 on December 22, 2011, 11:03:04 pm
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 11:05:25 pm
nope im not arguing against off topic statements, read what i said, and read what u said, dont feel the need to explain again ;)http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Motivation_of_Asian_Americans_to_Study_Medicine_A_Pilot_Studythat's quite a nice journal you have there, however i'd like to point out something ;)
Done.
"There is a lot of just expectation of serving the family.” All interviewees agreed that Asians consider it important to get a college degree. One respondent stated that his mother and relatives “really push for school. School is the answer to everything; they believe that medicine is the surest way to make money, have prestige and be an important member of the community. It is more of a cultural thing – parents stress education a lot.”"
did you ever bother to check out the sample size?
"The study target population consisted of 29 first and second year students self-identifying their race as “Asian.” The study sample consisted of 10 first year (M1) and second year (M2) Asian American medical students, comprising about one-third of the Asian American students in first or second year for the studied school. "
is that sufficient evidence to support your claim ofI said there were a large amount of students of Asian decent trying to get in because their parents push them and a lot of students who want the prestige/money of it all.?
So I presume your definition of "large amount" of students of asian decent is comprised around 10 or so people?
nice... do the same survey in China and then see what you get ;)
I end my argument here, as i feel like discussing this idea further makes me dumber,
9/10 of the students said that family aspirations were for them to be a doctor. Argue with that big boy.
You're saying the sample space is too small for the argument to be valid. I think you're clutching at straws, if they felt they needed a larger sample space for accurate results they probably would've got more students. I find the findings valid.
let me make an example for ya, doesn't seem like your brain can handle complex ideas. I can interview a small sample size right now by calling 10 of my friends and i can assure you that all 10 of them would say they are doing med not because it'll make their parents feel happy, does that mean this evidence is supportive of your claim of "large amount of students of Asian decent..." ?
1) yes - if your definition of "large" is restricted to the sample size of 29 or so people
2) no - if your definition of "large" is that of common sense.
Do you see why the size of the sample makes a huge difference now?
and no im not clutching at straws, im clutching at how mathematical statistics works, obviously you haven't learnt much stats have you?
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 11:06:43 pm
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 11:07:46 pm
Sellingman, in the duration of tonight your sig has changed from 98.xx to 99.25. You have changed your "area" in your sig from western suburbs to eastern suburbs. If you aren't trolling then I don't know what is. Don't go around generalising and saying what other people are doing and why they are doing it.
I just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.
@DC302, but you're applying for PG med, I can't comment on this demographic as they are older and I don't know them as well, I'm referencing Y12 applicants.
To be honest, I wouldn't find that data particularly convincing either if it weren't every single one of my Indian mates doing the UMAT and in general being fixated on medical school.
I'm not disagreeing that 10 is too small a sample size, it's more so general evidence I see around me and the amount of attention medicine receives on this forum.
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 11:09:09 pm
I'll start off by saying if you actually have true altruistic ambitions and want to med for the intellectual satisfaction and love of learning then go for it.
However I don't understand why people talk about the so called benefits of following such a career path. Medicine is an emotionally and psychologically draining career.
There is no money. There is no prestige.
Do you like being shafted to the sticks? Get used to it.
Do you mind being blamed by stupid patients and their equally stupid family? Get used to it.
You are NOT likely to be working in metro cities for long. They train excess number of doctors to be chucked to places that has only 2500 people, 6hrs drive from nearest regional city after internship. Say goodbye to your family and friends.
Summed it up better than I can put it. With all this in mind, why do so many of my Asian mates wanna do med if what I'm saying is incorrect?
Post by: Callum on December 22, 2011, 11:10:12 pm
Post by: TrueTears on December 22, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
I'm sorry but mate that is no excuse to "fake" your scores and so on. Your sig clearly says you are offering tuition, I'd say that's false advertising. If someone contacted you for tuition on the premise of seeing the scores in your sig don't you think that's a bit fake?Sellingman, in the duration of tonight your sig has changed from 98.xx to 99.25. You have changed your "area" in your sig from western suburbs to eastern suburbs. If you aren't trolling then I don't know what is. Don't go around generalising and saying what other people are doing and why they are doing it.
I just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.
If you wanna hide your identity, that's fine, but don't put you're offering tuition in your sig if you're gonna fake your results and so on. I don't wanna think you're trolling since you've made some good points, just that you seem to be a bit ignorant of some of your posts...
Anyhow I don't wanna lock this thread cause there was some good discussions, so let's get back to the topic guys ;)
Post by: b^3 on December 22, 2011, 11:13:03 pm
Sellingman, in the duration of tonight your sig has changed from 98.xx to 99.25. You have changed your "area" in your sig from western suburbs to eastern suburbs. If you aren't trolling then I don't know what is. Don't go around generalising and saying what other people are doing and why they are doing it.I just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.
@DC302, but you're applying for PG med, I can't comment on this demographic as they are older and I don't know them as well, I'm referencing Y12 applicants.
To be honest, I wouldn't find that data particularly convincing either if it weren't every single one of my Indian mates doing the UMAT and in general being fixated on medical school.
I'm not disagreeing that 10 is too small a sample size, it's more so general evidence I see around me and the amount of attention medicine receives on this forum.
This is going to be off-topic, but I'm going to say this. If thats what you were worried about then why not just remove the numbers. You are looking to tutor and so having results that aren't yours in your sig and a fake atar score is "false advertising" since students look at your results to determine wether they want to get you as a tutor.
EDIT: Truetears beat me by 14 seconds.
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 11:14:03 pm
I just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.What?
You're advertising as a tutor, prospective students will need to know/find out your real name won't they?
sounds off to me, interloper
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 11:17:04 pm
I just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.What?
You're advertising as a tutor, prospective students will need to know/find out your real name won't they?
sounds off to me, interloper
I don't want the whole forum to know my name, only my students. @Truetears, you're right here. I'll remove the add, I admit my wrongs here. Didn't think of that consequence.
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 11:24:34 pm
99% of the people on this forum will not track you down using your ATAR score. It would be 100% but you're a part of this forumI just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.What?
You're advertising as a tutor, prospective students will need to know/find out your real name won't they?
sounds off to me, interloper
I don't want the whole forum to know my name, only my students. @Truetears, you're right here. I'll remove the add, I admit my wrongs here. Didn't think of that consequence.
Post by: MJRomeo81 on December 22, 2011, 11:28:13 pm
Quote
1. You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.
Here’s the deal: you’ll be so caught up with taking classes, studying for exams, doing ward rotations, taking care of too many patients as a resident, trying to squeeze in a meal or an extra hour of sleep, that your entire life pre-medicine will be relegated to some nether, dust-gathering corner of your mind. Docs and med students don’t make it to their college reunions because who can take a whole weekend off? Unthinkable.
2. You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.
For the amount of training you put in and the amount of blood, sweat and tears medicine extracts from you (I’m not being metaphorical here), you should be getting paid an absurd amount of money as soon as you finish residency. And by ‘absurd’, I mean ‘at least a third of what a soulless investment banker makes, who saves no lives, produces nothing of social worth, and is basically a federally-subsidized gambler’ (but that’s a whole different rant, ahem).
I mean, you’re in your mid-thirties. You put in 4 years of med school, and at least 4 years of residency (up to 8 if you’re a surgeon). You even did a fellowship and got paid a pittance while doing that. And for all the good you’re doing humanity — you are healing people, for godssakes — you should get paid more than some spreadsheet jockey shifting around numbers, some lawyer defending tobacco companies or some consultant maximizing a client’s shareholder value, whatever the hell that means.
Right? Wrong. For the same time spent out of college, your I-banking, lawyering and consulting buddies are making 2-5 times as much as you are. At my tenth college reunion, friends who had gone into finance were near retirement and talking about their 10-acre parcel in Aspen, while 80% of my doctor classmates were still in residency, with an average debt of $100,000 and a salary of $40,000.
3. You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure.
Who amongst these professionals has to insure himself against the potential wrath of his own clients? The investment banker’s not playing with his own money. And even if he screws up to the tune of, oh, hundreds of billions of dollars, Uncle Sam’s there to bail him out (see: World History, 2008-2009).
The lawyers? They’re doing the suing, not being sued. But the doctors? Ah. Average annual liability premiums these days are around $30,000. That goes up to $80,000 for an obstetrician-gynecologist (who remains liable for any baby s/he delivers until said infant turns 18) and into the six-digit realm for neurosurgeons. Atul Gawande wrote a dynamite article about docs’ compensation in the 4 May 2005 issue of The New Yorker entitled Piecework — check it out.
4. You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.
The medical profession is bad for you. Just ask any current doctor or med student. You will eat irregularly, eat poorly when you do get the irregular meal (and so much for the now-outlawed drug-company sponsored meals — god bless their generous hearts and bottomless pockets), have way too much cortisol circulating in your system from all the stress you experience, have a compromised immune system because of all the cortisol in your blood, get sick more often because of the compromised immune system (and the perpetual exposure to disease – it’s a hospital where everybody’s sick, duh), and be perennially sleep-deprived. If your residency is four years long, on average you will spend one of those years without any sleep. A whole year of no sleep. Do you get that? This is as bad for you as it is for patients — you’ve heard of Libby's Law, right?http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/health/features/n_9426/
Post by: Sellingman on December 22, 2011, 11:31:22 pm
99% of the people on this forum will not track you down using your ATAR score. It would be 100% but you're a part of this forumI just found out what Pixon's real name was based on his scores in his sig, so I changed mine to hide my identity which I want protected. If you like, I can find out your real name as well.What?
You're advertising as a tutor, prospective students will need to know/find out your real name won't they?
sounds off to me, interloper
I don't want the whole forum to know my name, only my students. @Truetears, you're right here. I'll remove the add, I admit my wrongs here. Didn't think of that consequence.
I didn't have a problem with people off this forum knowing who I am, more so if a relative looks in future years at an old post and think hmm, same scores as xxxx, then reads all my posts, wouldn't be happy. Typing something like, 'omg, Melanie Iglesias is soooo hot, I'd bone her' might not be viewed so well at the family dinner table.
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 11:37:11 pm
I didn't have a problem with people off this forum knowing who I am, more so if a relative looks in future years at an old post and think hmm, same scores as xxxx, then reads all my posts, wouldn't be happy. Typing something like, 'omg, Melanie Iglesias is soooo hot, I'd bone her' might not be viewed so well at the family dinner table.Fair enough, you're a man of strategy, thinking 11 moves ahead.
i respect that
Post by: kamil9876 on December 22, 2011, 11:42:39 pm
Some other reasons why I don't understand the whole money/prestige thing with doing med: (quoted from a harvard blog)Quote1. You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.
Here’s the deal: you’ll be so caught up with taking classes, studying for exams, doing ward rotations, taking care of too many patients as a resident, trying to squeeze in a meal or an extra hour of sleep, that your entire life pre-medicine will be relegated to some nether, dust-gathering corner of your mind. Docs and med students don’t make it to their college reunions because who can take a whole weekend off? Unthinkable.
2. You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.
For the amount of training you put in and the amount of blood, sweat and tears medicine extracts from you (I’m not being metaphorical here), you should be getting paid an absurd amount of money as soon as you finish residency. And by ‘absurd’, I mean ‘at least a third of what a soulless investment banker makes, who saves no lives, produces nothing of social worth, and is basically a federally-subsidized gambler’ (but that’s a whole different rant, ahem).
I mean, you’re in your mid-thirties. You put in 4 years of med school, and at least 4 years of residency (up to 8 if you’re a surgeon). You even did a fellowship and got paid a pittance while doing that. And for all the good you’re doing humanity — you are healing people, for godssakes — you should get paid more than some spreadsheet jockey shifting around numbers, some lawyer defending tobacco companies or some consultant maximizing a client’s shareholder value, whatever the hell that means.
Right? Wrong. For the same time spent out of college, your I-banking, lawyering and consulting buddies are making 2-5 times as much as you are. At my tenth college reunion, friends who had gone into finance were near retirement and talking about their 10-acre parcel in Aspen, while 80% of my doctor classmates were still in residency, with an average debt of $100,000 and a salary of $40,000.
3. You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure.
Who amongst these professionals has to insure himself against the potential wrath of his own clients? The investment banker’s not playing with his own money. And even if he screws up to the tune of, oh, hundreds of billions of dollars, Uncle Sam’s there to bail him out (see: World History, 2008-2009).
The lawyers? They’re doing the suing, not being sued. But the doctors? Ah. Average annual liability premiums these days are around $30,000. That goes up to $80,000 for an obstetrician-gynecologist (who remains liable for any baby s/he delivers until said infant turns 18) and into the six-digit realm for neurosurgeons. Atul Gawande wrote a dynamite article about docs’ compensation in the 4 May 2005 issue of The New Yorker entitled Piecework — check it out.
4. You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.
The medical profession is bad for you. Just ask any current doctor or med student. You will eat irregularly, eat poorly when you do get the irregular meal (and so much for the now-outlawed drug-company sponsored meals — god bless their generous hearts and bottomless pockets), have way too much cortisol circulating in your system from all the stress you experience, have a compromised immune system because of all the cortisol in your blood, get sick more often because of the compromised immune system (and the perpetual exposure to disease – it’s a hospital where everybody’s sick, duh), and be perennially sleep-deprived. If your residency is four years long, on average you will spend one of those years without any sleep. A whole year of no sleep. Do you get that? This is as bad for you as it is for patients — you’ve heard of Libby's Law, right?http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/health/features/n_9426/
Maybe they are good points, maybe not. Maybe that is good advice for people who want to do medicine only for the prestige or what not. But to be honest i think the same can be said for just about any profession. The blog entry seems to praise the good life of a lawyer, but how many comic strips etc. have I seen making fun of the stressful nature of being a lawyer. I remember reading a similair entry about science/mathematics, but after talking to professors and seeing what they do I see that it can make you eventually happy if you really like it. Likewise I'm sure good doctors who really enjoy it won't find those arguments applicable to themselves, if you are really passionate about something then you will be determined to deal with challenging obstacles.
Post by: kamil9876 on December 22, 2011, 11:47:21 pm
I didn't have a problem with people off this forum knowing who I am, more so if a relative looks in future years at an old post and think hmm, same scores as xxxx, then reads all my posts, wouldn't be happy. Typing something like, 'omg, Melanie Iglesias is soooo hot, I'd bone her' might not be viewed so well at the family dinner table.Fair enough, you're a man of strategy, thinking 11 moves ahead.
i respect that
true, though he clearly hasn't thought 12 moves ahead by putting his location down as "Kentsington"
Post by: nacho on December 22, 2011, 11:50:54 pm
that's where you're wrongI didn't have a problem with people off this forum knowing who I am, more so if a relative looks in future years at an old post and think hmm, same scores as xxxx, then reads all my posts, wouldn't be happy. Typing something like, 'omg, Melanie Iglesias is soooo hot, I'd bone her' might not be viewed so well at the family dinner table.Fair enough, you're a man of strategy, thinking 11 moves ahead.
i respect that
true, though he clearly hasn't thought 12 moves ahead by putting his location down as "Kentsington"
I saved his old study scores and atar and tracked him down because this is what i do in my spare time
turns out he doesnt live in Kentsington,
this guy has actually thought 13 steps ahead! wow! ingenious
anyways, this is getting out of hand and a little too personal now i think
all im saying is that since you haven't been inside their heads and in their shoes, you shouldn't judge them and their values - reasonable, yes?
Post by: Hamdog17 on December 23, 2011, 12:04:18 am
I'll start off by saying if you actually have true altruistic ambitions and want to med for the intellectual satisfaction and love of learning then go for it.
However I don't understand why people talk about the so called benefits of following such a career path. Medicine is an emotionally and psychologically draining career.
There is no money. There is no prestige.
Do you like being shafted to the sticks? Get used to it.
Do you mind being blamed by stupid patients and their equally stupid family? Get used to it.
You are NOT likely to be working in metro cities for long. They train excess number of doctors to be chucked to places that has only 2500 people, 6hrs drive from nearest regional city after internship. Say goodbye to your family and friends.
There's pretty much NO TRUTH WHATSOEVER to anything you've said. Doctors earn awesome money (consultants can be on anything from 250k-700k per year), DO NOT face a mass exodus from the city to rural areas after a few years, have the respect of their patients and the community in general. Having done 3 stints of work experience with different doctors and hospitals and having had a student mentor who is a doctor for over a year, little of your post has any truth, except for the long hours part but most top tier occupations have poor hours as well.
Post by: Tashi on December 23, 2011, 12:44:09 am
Some other reasons why I don't understand the whole money/prestige thing with doing med: (quoted from a harvard blog)Quote1. You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.
Here’s the deal: you’ll be so caught up with taking classes, studying for exams, doing ward rotations, taking care of too many patients as a resident, trying to squeeze in a meal or an extra hour of sleep, that your entire life pre-medicine will be relegated to some nether, dust-gathering corner of your mind. Docs and med students don’t make it to their college reunions because who can take a whole weekend off? Unthinkable.
2. You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.
For the amount of training you put in and the amount of blood, sweat and tears medicine extracts from you (I’m not being metaphorical here), you should be getting paid an absurd amount of money as soon as you finish residency. And by ‘absurd’, I mean ‘at least a third of what a soulless investment banker makes, who saves no lives, produces nothing of social worth, and is basically a federally-subsidized gambler’ (but that’s a whole different rant, ahem).
I mean, you’re in your mid-thirties. You put in 4 years of med school, and at least 4 years of residency (up to 8 if you’re a surgeon). You even did a fellowship and got paid a pittance while doing that. And for all the good you’re doing humanity — you are healing people, for godssakes — you should get paid more than some spreadsheet jockey shifting around numbers, some lawyer defending tobacco companies or some consultant maximizing a client’s shareholder value, whatever the hell that means.
Right? Wrong. For the same time spent out of college, your I-banking, lawyering and consulting buddies are making 2-5 times as much as you are. At my tenth college reunion, friends who had gone into finance were near retirement and talking about their 10-acre parcel in Aspen, while 80% of my doctor classmates were still in residency, with an average debt of $100,000 and a salary of $40,000.
3. You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure.
Who amongst these professionals has to insure himself against the potential wrath of his own clients? The investment banker’s not playing with his own money. And even if he screws up to the tune of, oh, hundreds of billions of dollars, Uncle Sam’s there to bail him out (see: World History, 2008-2009).
The lawyers? They’re doing the suing, not being sued. But the doctors? Ah. Average annual liability premiums these days are around $30,000. That goes up to $80,000 for an obstetrician-gynecologist (who remains liable for any baby s/he delivers until said infant turns 18) and into the six-digit realm for neurosurgeons. Atul Gawande wrote a dynamite article about docs’ compensation in the 4 May 2005 issue of The New Yorker entitled Piecework — check it out.
4. You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.
The medical profession is bad for you. Just ask any current doctor or med student. You will eat irregularly, eat poorly when you do get the irregular meal (and so much for the now-outlawed drug-company sponsored meals — god bless their generous hearts and bottomless pockets), have way too much cortisol circulating in your system from all the stress you experience, have a compromised immune system because of all the cortisol in your blood, get sick more often because of the compromised immune system (and the perpetual exposure to disease – it’s a hospital where everybody’s sick, duh), and be perennially sleep-deprived. If your residency is four years long, on average you will spend one of those years without any sleep. A whole year of no sleep. Do you get that? This is as bad for you as it is for patients — you’ve heard of Libby's Law, right?http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/health/features/n_9426/
Maybe they are good points, maybe not. Maybe that is good advice for people who want to do medicine only for the prestige or what not. But to be honest i think the same can be said for just about any profession. The blog entry seems to praise the good life of a lawyer, but how many comic strips etc. have I seen making fun of the stressful nature of being a lawyer. I remember reading a similair entry about science/mathematics, but after talking to professors and seeing what they do I see that it can make you eventually happy if you really like it. Likewise I'm sure good doctors who really enjoy it won't find those arguments applicable to themselves, if you are really passionate about something then you will be determined to deal with challenging obstacles.
No liability for people in finance, they just get bailed out hehe.
I do think a lot of people are attracted to medicine because of the money/prestige and because maybe they have a slight interest in science. I think many of my friends who are applying for it haven't really found their true passion. Economics for me is something I loved and with minimal effort I got a high score because it was something I was genuinely interested in. But at our age it's fine to not know exactly what we want to do and many of them will found out in uni whether they really want to pursue medicine or not.
Medicine is a great career for people interested in science because it seems more "stable" than being a researcher. It also is great for people who don't want to become a regular 9 till 5 office worker. But it's a very challenging and demanding career, and those who are not passionate about it I doubt will end up pursuing it. And I would say a lot of people are interested in engineering, although not many girls. I know a few people who want to do dentistry as well but... I honestly don't know why you'd want to look at someone's mouth for a living. Dentistry is kind of a specialisation of medicine anyway, so of course there is less people. Medicine is very broad and there are many different areas of specialisation.
Post by: Sickle on December 23, 2011, 02:26:05 am
My current goal is to become a forensic pathologist.
I really want to become a forensic pathologist.
Forensic pathologist => Needs specialisation in pathology => Needs medical skills => Needs medical degree
Hence I want to do Med.
Post by: Russ on December 23, 2011, 09:52:05 am
Some other reasons why I don't understand the whole money/prestige thing with doing med: (quoted from a harvard blog)
Can we not quote problems with the American health care system and try to apply them to Australia?
There is no money. There is no prestige.
There is a lot of money and a lot of prestige.
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Do you like being shafted to the sticks? Get used to it.
Do you mind being blamed by stupid patients and their equally stupid family? Get used to it.
You cannot be forced to work anywhere you don't want to, which is what your comment is implying. You might work rurally for various reasons related to money, opportunities etc. but you can't be forced to. Anyway, harden up is the appropriate response. Yes, you will have to move around a lot as a doctor, but this is hardly something that should be a dealbreaker for the career.
Wanting to do medicine because it's well paid and offers good job security is not a bad thing. They were part of my reasons. Just make sure that you have other reasons as well. A love of learning is probably the most important, since the field is one of the fastest expanding.
Also, I hope this thread is over it's off topic spiral :<
Post by: paulsterio on December 26, 2011, 08:03:33 pm
- Love of learning, sciences and dealing with people
- Lots of communication, it's a career which has a lot to do with people
- Good pay and good prestige, it's a respected profession
- Lots of different career paths later on - different specialities, research, public health...etc
- Very stable job - it can't be pushed offshore and such, some specialities (the one's I like :P ) have reasonable hours, although some do have really long hours
- You can work in suburban areas and not in the city
Heaps of other reasons as well - most have been mentioned somewhere
Onto the topic of Asian parents and forcing their kids to do medicine, I think this is an interesting issue. It's true in some cases, I don't think we can deny that, we all have heard of situations where parents have "forced" their kids to do medicine, but to say 90% is a stretch, a very big one, to be honest. I surely do not want to do medicine for my family at all.
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In Asia, many families are extremely poor and medicine represents an avenue for a good student to break the cycle and have a decent life.You've also forgotten many other points, there are many more avenues to break the cycle and have a decent life, medicine is probably one of the harder avenues to having a decent life. Many students in Asia who actually do medicine are rich bastards who probably bribed their way into medical school as well, so you have to admit the whole underdog story of the poor student who does medicine to turn his life around is pretty rare and that most of the time, it's more likely that he end up as an accountant, an engineer or something like that rather than a doctor.
Furthermore, here in Australia, there are many other professions which pay just as well as medicine, dentistry, finance and management are just some of the fields. So I think you've got to re-think your information.
Your comments about your "Indian mates" wanting to do medicine is irrelevant, that's anecdotal and is nothing more than a persuasive device, I can easily say that I have a whole heap of curry (sub-continental) friends who want to do medicine as well, but then and again, I have heaps of others who don't wish to do medicine. I also have a lot of white friends who want to do medicine.
To conclude, Sellingman, I suggest you lay off and quit being so bigoted, the world isn't black and white