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QuantumJG

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Who believes in evolution?
« on: September 14, 2009, 09:24:22 pm »
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I was reading MX and came across an article that stated that the US did not allow a movie on evolution to be shown.

I do not get it!

In year 10 I learned about the theory of evolution and straight away believed in it! As someone who depends on science to show fact from fiction I said yes Darwin is correct.

In the US only 39% of the population believes in evolution, yet, they believe in scientology and this is where I get furious!!!

I went a bit far when speaking to my uncle, auntie and cousins (who are catholics) by saying that man evolved from ape like creatures and they asked me whether I was a scientoligist? science and scientology are that different, there is no similarity AT ALL.

What I really don't get is everyone has a right to believe in their own religion and yet people look down on people who believe in evolution, why?
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minilunchbox

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 09:41:55 pm »
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CREATIONALISM FTW.

jk.

Anyway I read the same article (but from a different source) and I'm relatively certain they only asked around 1000 people and if you find the site, they group age groups together and you'll see that college students and high school students have a higher percentage of people who 'believe' in evolution.

Right, yeah. Here it is. http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx

I never really understood how you can 'believe' in evolution. It's just a thing that you know. Like believing that the earth is round or that gravity exists. I mean. What.

But the people who go, 'LOL EVOLUTION MAKES NO SENSE. I'M NOT DESCENDED FROM A MONKEY BECAUSE THEY STILL EXIST LOLOLOL' make me want to stab things. Seriously.

ALSO, slightly off-topic, but really not. It's not that the US is banning the movie to be shown, it's just having a hard time finding distributors because of less-than-positive reviews it got at a film festival, but I'm pretty sure because of all this ~hype, they'll eventually find one.
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/0

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 09:45:34 pm »
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Ignorance isn't an excuse, only irrational people cannot accept evolution.

I'm sorry that's a bit harsh... but evolution is a fact. It has been experimentally observed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 09:49:03 pm by /0 »

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 09:45:56 pm »
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your question is very broad

im not sure about man evolving from ape... im leaning towards that being not true... i dunno how did we come from apes they are very different to us, we are very unique in many ways..... but u may say genes etc..but eh...i dont think that concludes we came from it.... but anyway i dont know really... i do believe in god however, but saying that god just plopped us on the planet i dont really beleive that too...lol but evoltuion is a very good theory

in terms of like microevolution that definetly occurs because we see it before our eyes...like bacteria how they mutate very rapidly and change to different conditions...but yeah iunno however its very controversial


i was reading someone elses essay i guess on this, it was quite interesting

http://www.greatdreams.com/essay.htm

heres a few segments

However, in his 1859 classic, The Origin Of Species, he skirted both issues in an attempt to placate his era’s dominant power structure—organized religion. Though he used the word “origin” in the title, he was careful to discuss only how species developed from each other, not how life originated. And he simply avoided discussing humanity’s origins.

The first fallacy is that life can spontaneously animate from organic material. In 1873 Dawson complained that “the men who evolve all things from physical forces do not yet know how these forces can produce the phenomenon of life even in its humblest forms.” He added that “in every case heretofore, the effort (to create animate life) has proved vain.” After 127 years of heavily subsidized effort by scientists all over the world to create even the most basic rudiments of life, they are still batting an embarrassing zero. In any other scientific endeavor, reason would dictate it is time to call in the dogs and water down the fire. But when it comes to Darwinian logic, as Dawson noted in 1873, “here also we are required to admit as a general principle what is contrary to experience.”

Dawson’s second fallacy was the gap that separates vegetable and animal life. “These are necessarily the converse of each other, the one deoxidizes and accumulates, the other oxidizes and expends. Only in reproduction or decay does the plant simulate the action of the animal, and the animal never in its simplest forms assumes the functions of the plant. This gap can, I believe, be filled up only by an appeal to our ignorance.” And thus it remains today. If life did evolve as Darwinists claim, it would have had to bridge the gap between plant and animal life at least once, and more likely innumerable times. Lacking one undeniable example of this bridging, science is again batting zero.

The third gap in the knowledge of 1873 was “that between any species of animal or plant and any other species. It is this gap, and this only, which Darwin undertook to fill up by his great work on the origin of species; but, notwithstanding the immense amount of material thus expended, it yawns as wide as ever, since it must be admitted that no case has been ascertained in which individuals of one species have transgressed the limits between it and other species.” Here, too, despite a ceaseless din of scientific protests to the contrary, there remains not a single unquestioned example of one species evolving entirely—not just partially—into another distinct and separate species.

A more widely known fraudulent attempt to support Darwin’s flagging theory was England’s famous Piltdown Man hoax of 1912, which was an ancient human skull found in conjunction with a modern orangutan’s lower jaw that had been doctored (its teeth filed down to look more human) and aged to match the look of the skull. This was much more important than Haeckel’s fraud because it provided the desperately sought “missing link” between humans and their proposed ape-like ancestors.

Despite the extreme volatility of these issues, and the immediate rancor received after aligning with the “wrong” side in someone else’s view, any objective analysis will conclude that both Darwinists and Creationists are wrong to a significant degree. Indeed, how could it be otherwise when each can shoot such gaping holes in the other? If either side was as correct as, say, Einstein’s general theory of relativity, which—apart from occasional dissonance with quantum mechanics—has faced no serious challenge since Einstein revealed it to an awestruck world in 1915, there would be no issues to debate: one side would be declared right, the other would be wrong, and that would be that.

The basic Darwinist position regarding how life began is called “spontaneous animation,” which J.W. Dawson complained about back in 1873. It is the idea that life somehow springs into existence suddenly, all by itself, when proper mixtures of organic and inorganic compounds are placed into proximity and allowed to percolate their way across the immensely deep chasm between non-life and life. Based on everything known about the technical aspects of that process—from 1873 until now—it is quite safe to say spontaneous animation doesn’t have the proverbial snowball’s chance of enduring.

Ignore the howls of protest echoing from far off to our right. Here on the middle ground reality rules, and reality says there is simply no way even the simplest life form—say, a sub-virus-sized microbe utilizing only a handful of RNA/DNA components—could have pulled itself together from any conceivable brew of chemical compounds and started functioning as a living entity. To cite just one reason, no laboratory has ever found a way to coax lipids into forming themselves into a functional cell membrane, which is essential for encasing any living microbe. Then there is permeability, which would also have to be a part of the mix so nutrients could be taken into the cell and wastes could be expelled.

Fred Hoyle, a brilliant English astronomer and mathematician, once offered what has become the most cogent analogy for this process. He said it would be comparable to “a tornado striking a junkyard and assembling a jetliner from the materials therein.” This is because the complexity evident at even the tiniest level of life is mind boggling beyond belief. In short, it could not and did not happen, and anyone insisting otherwise is simply wrong, misguided, or terrified of dealing with what its loss means to their world view.

So, if spontaneous animation is simply not possible, how does life come into existence? How can it be? Here we must call on an old friend, Sherlock Holmes, who was fond of saying that in any quest for truth one should first eliminate whatever is flatly impossible. Whatever remains, however unlikely, will be the truth. With spontaneous animation eliminated, that leaves only one other viable alternative: intervention at some level by some entity or entities. (Ignore the rousing cheers erupting far to our left.)

As noted above, Creationists insist that God (a singular male now, reduced from the genderless plurals of original Biblical text) created man in His own image, after His own likeness. Well, if that’s true, He must have been having a heck of a bad day, because we humans are a poorly designed species. True, we do have highly capable brains, but for some reason we are only allowed to use a relatively small portion of them. (Now we will hear frantic howls of protest from the scientists off to our right, but ignore them. If 100 idiot savants can access 100 different portions of their brains to perform their astounding intellectual feats, then those same portions must be in our brains, too, but our normalcy keeps us from being able to access them. Period.)

Morally we are a terrible mishmash of capacities, capable of evil incarnate at one moment and love incarnate the next, while covering every range of emotion in between. Physically we carry more than 4,000 genetic disorders, with each of us averaging about 50 (some carry many more, some many less). New ones are found on a regular basis. No other species has more than a handful of serious ones, and none which kill 100% of carriers before they can reach maturity and reproduce. We have dozens of those. So how did they get into us? Better yet, how do they stay in us? If they are 100% fatal before reproduction is possible, how could they possibly spread through our entire gene pool?

If we assume God was at His best the day He decided to create us, functioning in His usual infallible mode, that gives Him no legitimate excuse for designing us so poorly. Surely He could have given us no more physical disorders than, say, our nearest genetic relatives, gorillas and chimps. A little albinism never hurt any species, not those two or ours or dozens of others that carry it, so why couldn’t He just leave it at that? What could have been the point of making us much less genetically robust than all the other species we are supposed to be masters of?

There is no point to it, which is my point. It simply didn’t happen that way.

Notice that in any series of photos showing the skulls of the Homo prehumans, little changes over time except the size of their brains, which increase by leaps of roughly 200 cubic centimeters between species. Every bone in those skulls is much denser and heavier than in humans; they all had missing foreheads; huge brow ridges; large, round eye sockets holding nocturnal (night) vision eyes; wide cheekbones; broad nasal passages beneath noses that had to splay flat across their faces (no uplift of bone to support an off-the-face nose); mouths that extend outward in the prognathous fashion; and no chins.

Each of those features is classic higher primate, and they predominate in the fossil record until only 120,000 years ago, when genuinely human-looking creatures—the Cro-Magnons—appear literally “overnight” (in geological terms), with absolutely everything about them starkly different from their predecessors. In fact, the list of those differences is so lengthy, it is safe to say humans are not even primates! (More howls of outrage from off to our right, but please keep to the middle ground and consider the evidence.)

According to our mitochondrial DNA, humans have existed as a distinct species for only about 200,000 years, give or take several thousand. This creates quite a problem for Darwinists because they contend we are part of the sequence extending back through the Australopithecines at four million years ago. Furthermore, we should follow directly after the Neanderthals, which followed Homo Erectus. But now the Neanderthals, which existed for about 300,000 years and overlapped Cro-Magnons by about 100,000 of those, have provided mitochondrial samples which indicate they are not related closely enough to humans to be direct ancestors. This compounds yet another serious transition problem because human brains are on average 100 cubic centimeters smaller than Neanderthal brains! How might that have happened if we are on a direct ancestral line with them?

Anthropologists are now left with only Homo Erectus as a possible direct ancestor for humans, and Erectus supposedly went extinct 300,000 years ago—100,000 before we appeared. Obviously, something had to give here, and—as in war—truth has been the first casualty. Recently anthropologists started reevaluating Homo Erectus fossils from Indonesia and guess what? They are now finding possible dates as early as 30,000 years ago, well beneath the 120,000 years ago Cro-Magnons first appeared in the fossil record. Such a surprise! However, scientists still have to account for our “sudden” appearance and our wide array of new traits never before seen among primates.

Understand this: humans are not primates! Yes, we do fit the technical definition of having flexible hands and feet with five digits, but beyond that there is no reasonable comparison to make. We don’t have primate bone density (theirs is far more robust than ours) or muscular strength (pound for pound they are 5 to 10 times stronger than we are); but we do have foreheads; minimal brow ridges; small, rectangular-shaped eye sockets holding poor night-vision eyes; narrow nasal passages with noses that protrude off our faces; mouths that are flat rather than prognathous; we have chins; and we are bipedal.

Apart from those skeletal differences, we don’t have primate brains (that is an understatement!), throats (we can’t eat or drink and breathe at the same time; they can); voices (they can make loud calls, but we can modulate them into the tiny pieces of sound that make up words); body covering (they all have pelts of hair from head to toe, thick on the back and lighter on the front; we have no pelt and our thickness pattern is reversed); we cool ourselves by sweating profusely (they tend to pant, though some sweat lightly); we shed tears of emotion (no other primate does); we do not regulate our salt intake (all other primates do); we have a layer of fat of varying thickness attached to the underside of our skin, which primates do not have; that fat layer prevents wounds to our skin from healing as easily as wounds to primate skin; human females have no estrus cycle, as do all primates; but the number one difference between humans and primates is that humans have only 46 chromosomes while all higher primates have 48!

This last fact is the clincher. You can’t lose two entire chromosomes (think how much DNA that is!) from your supposedly “parent” species and somehow end up better. And not just better, a light year better! It defies logic to the point where any reasonable person should be willing to concede that something “special” happened in the case of humans, something well beyond the ordinary processes of life on Earth. And it did. The “missing” chromosomes, it turns out, are not actually missing. The second and third chromosomes in higher primates have somehow been spliced together (there is no other term for it) by an utterly inexplicable—some might call it “miraculous”— technique.
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m@tty

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 10:06:18 pm »
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I agree with TrueLight. Evolution is a good theory, it has taken what we see ('microevolution' if this is what its called) and tried to apply it to the biggest question there is, our origins. I don't understand how some can see more logic in this, billions of years of evolution, than in God. Both require faith, as both have very little evidence.

But being a Christian I'm gonna say no we didn't evolve from apes, for on the sixth day god created man.

I have personal reasons for my faith and I have witnessed the work of God,
of course you are entitled to your personal beliefs.
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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 10:14:36 pm »
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Load of crap imo

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 10:17:47 pm »
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I like evolution.
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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 10:26:50 pm »
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I agree with TrueLight. Evolution is a good theory, it has taken what we see ('microevolution' if this is what its called) and tried to apply it to the biggest question there is, our origins. I don't understand how some can see more logic in this, billions of years of evolution, than in God. Both require faith, as both have very little evidence.

But being a Christian I'm gonna say no we didn't evolve from apes, for on the sixth day god created man.

I have personal reasons for my faith and I have witnessed the work of God,
of course you are entitled to your personal beliefs.

I don't see why other scientific theories like quantum mechanics aren't subjected to the same criticisms that people seem to have for evolution. The theory of evolution has evidence, lots of it. Like any other scientific theory it is put through the rigour of the scientific method - it must survive the scrutiny of thousands of other scientists in peer-reviewed scientific journals in order to survive. The 'theory' of evolution is not a 'guess', it is a tested hypothesis, and a theory in the same sense as Newton's gravity or Einstein's special relativity are theories.

m@tty

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 10:30:01 pm »
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How is it as tested as gravity?
How is it tested at all?

I want would like to hear your answers.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:40:56 pm by m@tty »
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m@tty

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 10:35:06 pm »
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Over9000: How do you test God? I want to hear your answers.


As I said above belief requires faith. No test.

And I actually am interested in answers about what I asked. I added that so you wouldn't think I was fobbing you off, apparently it didn't work.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 11:53:20 pm by m@tty »
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m@tty

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 10:37:42 pm »
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Over9000: But you have witnessed the act of God, surely this is a test.

Surely you would not believe me, and also surely it isn't relevant to you.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 11:54:18 pm by m@tty »
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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 10:42:10 pm »
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How is it as tested as gravity?
How is it tested at all?

I want to hear your answers.

Newton's theory of gravity is an outdated theory, but at its time, no evidence could be found which contradicted it. Everything seemed to obey his laws - apples fell, and planets orbited. In 1915 he was usurped by Einstein, who improved on his theory. Evidence (gravitational lensing - bending of light, slowing of time in space-shuttle orbits) was found to support Einstein's theory, and now it is the accepted theory. 
I'm not saying 'evolution' is the end-all-be-all. It is simply the best theory we have at our present time. If new evidence arrives which contradicts the theory, then we will have to amend the theory, or find a better theory. In any case, I think it provides far more insight into the origin of species than to say an invisible being in the sky created everything.

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 10:44:17 pm »
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"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky

Serious, suppose that there is a conspiracy and all the biologists have been misguided the whole time. A crap load of work in biology, medicine, psychology, neuroscience etc. relies on the fact that evolutionary theory is correct.

Also, we can observe evolution at work. Only a few weeks ago, I gave antibiotic resistance to E. Coli in a prac that I did for BMS1062 (that's Molecular Biology for you).  That is an example of evolution. A more potent example is the virus for AIDS, HIV. It didn't just come from la la land. It evolved from SIV, which is a monkey equivalent.
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m@tty

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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 10:46:18 pm »
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@/0
Ok, but is there any evidence/testing of evolution? You didn't show any.
And I did say it was a good theory.

@Glockmeister
I didn't doubt the evolution that we can witness i.e. all your examples. Only the extension of these to our origins.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:47:58 pm by m@tty »
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Re: Who believes in evolution?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 10:48:41 pm »
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Dude how do you people think pikachu transforms to raichu?

CLEARLY IT OBEYS THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION. (unless it carries an everstone)
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