Should France ban the veil?

[ninwa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8635178.stm

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered parliament to debate a law banning women from wearing full-face Islamic veils in public, officials say.

Last year he said such veils oppressed women and were not welcome in France.

The proposal has provoked intense debate about religious freedom in a secular society, as well as the position of Muslims in France.

interested in your views since I'm actually studying this issue in French atm


related: Belgium will ban the burqa

[Yitzi_K]

Absolutely not.

Of course in French society (indeed in Western society) forcing someone to comply with a religious belief (ie that women should be completely covered) is considered wrong. Therefore it's perfectly fair for France to put a stop to the forcing of women to wear veils, just the same as they would stop violence against women.

But to deny women the free choice to comply with their religion is abhorrent and disgusting. I am sure that many Muslim women would choose to wear a veil themselves, without it being forced upon them. This is a practice that is completely personal and has no effect or harm on others whatsoever. (Of course the security issues are a whole different kettle of fish.) If Australia made laws forbidding the practice of my religion or any part of my religion, I'd be furious.

[ed_saifa]

It's France, they have language police. Not surprised they would do something like this.

[ninwa]

Absolutely not.

Of course in French society (indeed in Western society) forcing someone to comply with a religious belief (ie that women should be completely covered) is considered wrong. Therefore it's perfectly fair for France to put a stop to the forcing of women to wear veils, just the same as they would stop violence against women.

But to deny women the free choice to comply with their religion is abhorrent and disgusting. I am sure that many Muslim women would choose to wear a veil themselves, without it being forced upon them. This is a practice that is completely personal and has no effect or harm on others whatsoever. (Of course the security issues are a whole different kettle of fish.) If Australia made laws forbidding the practice of my religion or any part of my religion, I'd be furious.

I agree with you on most levels, but can I just mention that (as far as I know) the wearing of the burqa/niqab is not actually in the Koran anywhere. It is not a religious practice but rather a cultural one. Does that change your view at all?

(I'm happy to be corrected, this is just my very limited understanding)

[Yitzi_K]

Absolutely not.

Of course in French society (indeed in Western society) forcing someone to comply with a religious belief (ie that women should be completely covered) is considered wrong. Therefore it's perfectly fair for France to put a stop to the forcing of women to wear veils, just the same as they would stop violence against women.

But to deny women the free choice to comply with their religion is abhorrent and disgusting. I am sure that many Muslim women would choose to wear a veil themselves, without it being forced upon them. This is a practice that is completely personal and has no effect or harm on others whatsoever. (Of course the security issues are a whole different kettle of fish.) If Australia made laws forbidding the practice of my religion or any part of my religion, I'd be furious.

I agree with you, but can I just mention that (as far as I know) the wearing of the burqa is not actually in the Koran anywhere. It is not a religious practice but rather a cultural one. Does that change your view at all?

(I'm happy to be corrected, this is just my very limited understanding)

I know as much as you about Islam, so I don't know if that is true or not. But I would assume that just because it's not in the Koran does not necessarily make it not part of the religion. For example, 99.99% of Jewish practices are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but they're religious practices nonetheless.

[/0]

It doesn't matter what country or what religion is involved, people should have the freedom to wear whatever they want.

So, NO.

[EvangelionZeta]

I approach these issues with a perspective from Mill's On Liberty - something should only be banned if it causes harm to someone.  If France can prove that the cultural wearing of veils is oppressing women (and I'm not saying that this is that hard), then they're in the right.  Otherwise, it's an unnecessary law.

[Yitzi_K]

I approach these issues with a perspective from Mill's On Liberty - something should only be banned if it causes harm to someone.  If France can prove that the cultural wearing of veils is oppressing women (and I'm not saying that this is that hard), then they're in the right.  Otherwise, it's an unnecessary law.

But what if the women themselves are the ones choosing to wear it?

[ninwa]

If France can prove that the cultural wearing of veils is oppressing women (and I'm not saying that this is that hard), then they're in the right.

I don't think that's hard to prove either, but I don't think imposing a draconian law is going to change the root of the problem, which is the archaic attitude to women still prevalent in some cultures. I'm worried that instead of liberating these women, this law may instead have the unintended effect of confining them to their homes (as they're either too self-conscious to go out in public or their husbands won't permit it).

However, this is not surprising for a country which bans the wearing of crosses, veils, kippot etc. anything (conspicuously) signifying religious adherence) in schools, and makes it illegal for students to take days off for religious holidays...

[Souljette_93]

Absolutely not.

Of course in French society (indeed in Western society) forcing someone to comply with a religious belief (ie that women should be completely covered) is considered wrong. Therefore it's perfectly fair for France to put a stop to the forcing of women to wear veils, just the same as they would stop violence against women.

But to deny women the free choice to comply with their religion is abhorrent and disgusting. I am sure that many Muslim women would choose to wear a veil themselves, without it being forced upon them. This is a practice that is completely personal and has no effect or harm on others whatsoever. (Of course the security issues are a whole different kettle of fish.) If Australia made laws forbidding the practice of my religion or any part of my religion, I'd be furious.

I agree with you on most levels, but can I just mention that (as far as I know) the wearing of the burqa/niqab is not actually in the Koran anywhere. It is not a religious practice but rather a cultural one. Does that change your view at all?

(I'm happy to be corrected, this is just my very limited understanding)

One of the very wrong misunderstandings that people believe is that the niqab comes from culture. You would even find some Muslims even claiming this.
It's actually a religious practice, although the word "Niqab" doesn't appear in the Quran exactly, the command to cover up/veil is definitely mentioned. however, Scholars differed whether it is compulsory to wear the niqab or not. Some say yes, and some say no. Two of the four School of thought in Islam believe it is compulsory, hence why countries such as Saudi Arabia adhere to the full-face veil.

So No, France is completely Foolish for trying to ban the Niqaab. It is not the oppression of women and making her taking it off is actually oppressing her.
And at most times, Husbands do not force their wives to cover-up fully, France's claim is wrong, if they have actually entered the home of these Niqaabi women, they would know it was done by their own choice.


Souljette<3

[ninwa]

Wait isn't that what I said?

I agree with you on most levels, but can I just mention that (as far as I know) the wearing of the burqa/niqab is not actually in the Koran anywhere.

Though I suppose that's pretty close to being a religious practice since it's kind of based on a religious text... Does it say that you have to cover your face?

[Souljette_93]

Wait isn't that what I said?

I agree with you on most levels, but can I just mention that (as far as I know) the wearing of the burqa/niqab is not actually in the Koran anywhere.

Though I suppose that's pretty close to being a religious practice since it's kind of based on a religious text... Does it say that you have to cover your face?

Specifically?
Then no, it's based on the interpretation.

Souljette<3

[Boots]

The Quran or Hadith (not too sure) state this: a woman must cover her whole body, with the exception of her hands and face.
Thus, burqa is not compulsory, the scarf is (to cover the hair). From what I know.

[Cthulhu]

If Iran is allowed to have a law requiring all women to cover their bodies except their hands/faces why isn't France allowed to have a law requiring women to show their faces? oh right. Because that would be *oppression*.

[Glockmeister]

If Iran is allowed to have a law requiring all women to cover their bodies except their hands/faces why isn't France allowed to have a law requiring women to show their faces? oh right. Because that would be *oppression*.

Because Tit-for-Tat never made for good politics.