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March 15, 2026, 04:15:54 am

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lisafaustina

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Help
« on: July 18, 2010, 12:19:21 pm »
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is there  an easy way of solving those 'one is telling the truth, the other one is lying' questions in section 1 ? cos i dont understand medentry's way of explaining it.
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shinny

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Re: Help
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2010, 01:05:48 pm »
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Usually it involves assuming one person is true and seeing where it leads you. This doesn't always work though as it doesn't lead to a definitive path and there's still more variables even after doing so.
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naved_s9994

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Re: Help
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2010, 10:22:17 pm »
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Usually it involves assuming one person is true and seeing where it leads you. This doesn't always work though as it doesn't lead to a definitive path and there's still more variables even after doing so.

Could you give an example, and solve it your method Shinny? Please...Thanks!
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shinny

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Re: Help
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2010, 11:00:53 pm »
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Well I'd need an example first. This is the way that MedEntry usually solves it anyway. Just read their questions and solutions.
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stonecold

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Re: Help
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 11:19:51 pm »
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http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,23653.msg281636.html#msg281636

This is about as complex as I've seen.  It took me ages, but I kinda get it now.

If you cbf, can you explain it please.

Only if you can be bothered.  It is a massive drag I know...
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shinny

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Re: Help
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 12:00:05 am »
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I'd do a + - 'circuit' sort of system here. It's easier on paper where I can actually draw cycles and just use + and - marks to designate true or false but I'll try and show what I mean here in straight chains. In each option you have 2 statements, let's just call them 1 and 2 as they're already designated. Start off by assuming 1 is true. This causes the following in I:
true-->1--lie-->2
Continuing on, if 2 is a lie (i.e. statement 1 is NOT the truth), then the following happens:
true-->1--lie-->2--lie-->1
Then from there, you've gotten back to the start, but instead of starting off with 1 being assumed true, it's now turned false. Hence, this will just cause a perpetual cycle which doesn't lead anywhere. This happens also in II. However if you try this with III:
true-->1--lie-->2
true-->1--lie-->2--true-->1--lie-->2--true-->1 etcetc.
It ends up being a cycle which connects without changing the starting assumption.

If you don't get it, I'll draw it up and scan it when I get the time. Uni starting tmrw =S
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lisafaustina

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Re: Help
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 12:09:34 am »
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I don't get it :( if you could scan an example that'd be great .
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naved_s9994

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Re: Help
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 07:28:03 am »
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I don't get it :( if you could scan an example that'd be great .

Seconded - thanks Shinny for the explaination though :)
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shinny

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Re: Help
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 04:31:24 pm »
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Yeh sorry, it's definitely not the clearest working out but it's a fast method and would be how I'd actually solve it in rough working out, hence the scrappiness of the method itself =/

So starting with I, set up the given details with a diagram like this. This is saying that statement 1 is saying statement 2 is a lie (-), and statement 2 is saying statement 1 is true (+).


Now, start with the assumption that statement 1 is true. i.e. It is saying that statement 2 is actually a lie. I'll write this as follows:


Now with truth and lies in this situation, given that there's only two options (a statement is either true or not regarding the other statement), it's actually similar to other positive and negative systems. If you think about it, if a statement which says another statement is true, is true itself, then that other statement is obviously true. If a statement which says another statement is a lie, but is a lie itself, then the other statement has to be true as that's the only other viable option. So you can see that as with Maths, multiplying a positive and positive, or a negative and negative will always give you a positive. The converse applies with multiplying a positive and negative, meaning that a lying statement saying the other is true, or a true statement saying the other is false, obviously mean the other statement is false. Hence, using your typical mathematical positive-negative multiplication laws to simplify things from here on:


This diagram is saying that if you assume 1 to be true, and 1 is saying 2 is false, then 2 must be false. Hence the negative sign underneath it. However, from here you can already see a problem. 2 is false, but it's saying 1 is true, so hence 1 must be false. But we've already said 1 is true. So there's a contradiction here.

If you then follow suit and let 1 be false as the system is indicating (draw this diagram yourself and see what happens, I cbf drawing another), 2 becomes true, but then this causes 1 to become true again. Hence, the system never stays constant on its signs and hence will continue to contradict itself indefinitely.

However if you take say III:

Multiplying the + and - makes 2 negative as shown by:

And then multiplying the - and - makes a positive, which was what we started off with. Hence, the entire system just stays constant and there's no contradictions arising. You'll see that this particular system actually works whether you assume 1 to be true or false to begin with.

If you still don't get it, look, copying someone else's methods probably isn't the best idea anyway. I work in a far more mathematically based system than most so if you're not mathematically minded, there's no point copying my methods. Just work out what's best for you because there's plenty of ways to figure out these problems. The point I was trying to get across initially is that these truth and lies questions tend to be based upon a system where you assume one of the statements to initially be either true or false, and then follow the system of logic through to reach your answer, whether that's figuring out whether any contradictions arise, or shifting through combinations of statements until none do etc.
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stonecold

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Re: Help
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 04:40:53 pm »
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MedEntry should pay you a gazzilion dolars for the quality of that explanation. :)

Thanks so much shinny....I love the positive and negative thing, it's brilliant!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 04:42:49 pm by stonecold »
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Greggler

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Re: Help
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 04:53:46 pm »
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Trial and errors/guess and check is the most effective method i find.

Just make the first statement true, the  go through the other statments to see if they still 'work'. If it doesnt work, make the second statment true.. etc.

stonecold

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Re: Help
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 04:58:45 pm »
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haha, shinny's method is the bomb.  it works on the truth/false question 12 in acer practice book 1 too!
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lisafaustina

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Re: Help
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 05:36:52 pm »
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Wow shinny, you're the best
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