The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

[Eriny]

I came across this article: http://theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/

Although it isn't perfect, I largely agree with the writer. He talks about privilege and the grade inflation rampant at prestigious institutions, the false meritocracy, how even very elite institutions don't encourage intellectual journeys or academic curiosity, how education just seems geared to groom them for a specific socioeconomic class, the lack of diversity and edginess of students in elite universities.

I wonder if the writer's comments works for Australia (personally, I think we're a bit freer and laid back, but I'm not so sure). I definitely feel that despite post-modernism my work at university has helped me shaped my vision and values, I'm not really sure to what extent that is true of everyone (or even how you could possibly tell whether it's true of most people or not). Also, university seems full of interesting, unique people.

[EvangelionZeta]

There are elements of truth within what he says which I strongly agree with (such as the diversity statement) - there's generally an extreme elitism inherent to such schools.  Speaking for my own tastes, this is one of the factors which threw me off (along with a myriad of other things) applying overseas.

That said, I would take a more balanced approach towards everything else.  Whilst there's probably more "grooming" going on at very elite institutions (partially because of the networking and so forth that takes place) than anywhere else, the stuff about academic curiousity and "intellectual journeys" isn't really an applicable critique.  From what I gather (from friends at Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Princeton, etc.), the rigour, breadth and depth available to students at such institutions far outstrips what you'd get in a regular course at virtually any other university.  Yes, there's still an annoying "vocational" focus which seeps into many students' mentalities, but this is a problem with contemporary tertiary education as a whole, which is often far worse outside of these institutions: consider how many people (and I don't mean to be cynical, but...) studying Biomed at Melbourne are there for intellectual stimulation.

Speaking as another PhB student as well, Eriny, I would say that we're in a far likelier position than most students in Australian universities to judge this sort of phenomenon - after all, our degree is one of the few which encourages "free thinking", "academic curiousity", "intellectual journeys" and, above all else, a complete lack of vocational preoccupation (unless one wants to be an academic, lol).  From experience, many, many people at ANU don't see their education in the same terms at all: yes, there's more socio-economic diversity and "freedom", but at the same time most people are still looking at careers (even if they're not certain which one) from the get-go.  The interesting, unique people point is also a bit iffy.  It's a very subjective value-judgement to begin with, but again, the elite institution students whom I know are just as likely to be brilliant, absolutely fascinating individuals as they are to appear institutionally-confined (kind of like every other university!). 

Basically, I think a lot of the writer's critiques are more applicable to educational institutions as a whole than anything else.  The most "liberal" thinker I know would rather go off and live in the wilderness (and write philosophy by himself) for a few years than attend university if he could do so.  The philosopher Wittgenstein also went to university, found that it was "prostituting his mind" and did exactly the same thing.  And personally speaking, I think I would have much more creative output if I wasn't stuck in an institution - no matter how laid-back Australia is, the pressure and mechanisation is still there, no matter what. 

[Eriny]

Oh yes, that's definitely true. I do get the feeling of being in a 'degree factory' from time to time, though as you point out, possibly for very external reasons, what the writer is saying doesn't match my experience really. That said, for instance, the strong emphasis on marks I believe does stop one from extending their academic horizons by having students stick to subjects they know that they're good at instead of trying something new.

Despite that, and despite the extreme bureaucracy and the need for 'educational outcomes', university I think has done something for most people I know in that their perspective isn't necessarily the same as when they walked in. In part, that's growing up and being in a new social environment as well as course content and being able to read widely and such, but all of those things are still (for the most part) fully integrated into university life. That is to say, there's more to it than going to class and getting a degree for the sake of employability. If that were the point, university would be a terribly inefficient mode of achieving that.

Perhaps part of the problems experienced in educational institutions is that many people don't recognise that it isn't really about the degree; or maybe the problem is that any institution is structurally ill-equipped to be about anything other than outcomes. Or both. I don't know.

[EvangelionZeta]

Oh yes, that's definitely true. I do get the feeling of being in a 'degree factory' from time to time, though as you point out, possibly for very external reasons, what the writer is saying doesn't match my experience really. That said, for instance, the strong emphasis on marks I believe does stop one from extending their academic horizons by having students stick to subjects they know that they're good at instead of trying something new.

Despite that, and despite the extreme bureaucracy and the need for 'educational outcomes', university I think has done something for most people I know in that their perspective isn't necessarily the same as when they walked in. In part, that's growing up and being in a new social environment as well as course content and being able to read widely and such, but all of those things are still (for the most part) fully integrated into university life. That is to say, there's more to it than going to class and getting a degree for the sake of employability. If that were the point, university would be a terribly inefficient mode of achieving that.

Perhaps part of the problems experienced in educational institutions is that many people don't recognise that it isn't really about the degree; or maybe the problem is that any institution is structurally ill-equipped to be about anything other than outcomes. Or both. I don't know.

Definitely agree with this, and this is one of the few points where I would really champion the American system, which has a VERY heavy focus on co-curricular involvement and the like.  That said, you gain some and you lose some, and the tradeoff there is that co-curriculars become much more competitive, and even elitist (a lot of societies will only take a certain number of people in each year, for example)...

[appianway]

The author went to Columbia, right?

In all honesty, I object to people making generalisations about schools like my own (Yale) in such a fashion. It's incredibly difficult to understand what it's like without actually attending one.

In many senses, I disagree with the article. The author mentions at some point that it's impossible for students from elite universities to learn how to speak to people from "average" backgrounds. What, even? I feel comfortable chatting to the dining hall staff here; we're all human. A lot of my suitemates volunteer in the New Haven community (I love the town, but it's certainly not without its problems). Whilst there are a disproportionately large number of "rich kids" here, there are still students who came from the ghettos of New York and others who grew up on fast food meals. Maybe the author experienced Columbia back in a completely different time. In any case, my own experience at Yale has been anything to the contrary.

The grade inflation issue here is more interesting. The average GPA is high, but the workload and the standard required is farrrrrr beyond what I saw in Australia. Maybe it's because it's Yale; it's regarded as the second most prestigious university in the US, and has arguably the best undergraduate eduation. I found I could get by in VCE with very little work, yet at Yale, I'm busting my gut to get decent grades. 50% of students obtain a 3.6 or above, but the quality of the students with whom one is competing is incredible. There was a group of about 6 of us talking during international student orientation, and in our group, we had a student who spoke eight languages, was a champion public speaker and was a medallist from the IOL, a student who owned an air/water library and received donations from massive scientific institutes (and also made a lot of money in her internships this summer...), a student who'd already done graduate internships and was writing a book, me with my measly olympiad sort of stuff, as well as two more students who seemed very modest. Even making average grades in this environment is difficult. I certainly feel as though the coursework is much faster paced and much more challenging than what I'd receive at home; we're also encouraged to study outside of our comfort zone (distribution requirements!).   

I love Yale, even though it's not perfect. It's very hard to get involved in activities for the first time, especially if it's a selective tryout process. But there are so many things to do, so I guess it all works out in the end.

[Eriny]

That's really good to hear, appianway. I'm glad that you're enjoying it. I have heard lots of mixed reports about the ivy league (to be fair, mostly Harvard related things), like in these links:
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2011/07/11/harvard-and-class/
http://www.theawl.com/2011/07/whats-invisible-at-harvard-a-conversation
http://www.esmewang.com/2011/02/why-i-left-yale-mental-illness-higher-education/
http://thechicktionary.com/post/4781987342/on-harvard-un-happiness
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1994/9/29/prozac-nation-elizabeth-wurtzels-unofficial-guide/

I've read a lot about it because I'm interested in class/privilege type stuff and because I wouldn't mind going to one of these institutions, which is difficult sometimes to make tenable but I think it works. If you cut out the whole 'legacy' thing, I think the Ivy League at least makes an effort to encourage people of all different backgrounds to apply for admission. In addition, I think that ultimately you can't blame these places for what happens when you put a bunch of incredibly smart and successful people together. Anyway, I think the problems people encounter at places like that are still not as bad as a college/university with little in the way of financial aid, no decent level of student services, and no level of diversity whatsoever.

And yes, I think the author is to blame for not being able to talk to a plumber rather than his institutions of study (when I read that part of the article I was not impressed and I was pre-empting a crass discussion on haves and have-nots).

[paulsterio]

But on the contrary, what we have to admit is that we're all people in the end,
When education is all done and dusted, and we're out of university, does it really matter whether we went to Harvard or Yale or to some lousy university here in Australia
Like if I were to engage in a random conversation with someone on a train, for example, the last thing on my mind would be how educated that particular person may be.
I agree that with a good education comes a sort of prejudice, for example, I do notice myself "laughing at" (not intending to be condescending of course) on kids that go to "lower" secondary schools, but that doesn't mean that I think any less of them as fellow people.

Anyway, enough of a little rant,
Onto the topic of what universities, I'm still of the belief that universities are what you might call "degree factories" - they take in students and throw them out with degrees so that they can enter the workforce, whether or not they are intellectually stimulated, and whether or not they become good thinkers, are highly irrelevant to the 90% of common jobs we find. That's why we have to consider that what universities cater for, as a whole, may not be the small percentage that are there to be stimulated, but the larger percentage that just want to get their degree as fast as possible - no fuss.

It might have just been the way I was brought up, to believe that education is merely a means of getting a job

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btw, appianway, what are you doing at yale?

[MJRomeo81]

Onto the topic of what universities, I'm still of the belief that universities are what you might call "degree factories" - they take in students and throw them out with degrees so that they can enter the workforce, whether or not they are intellectually stimulated, and whether or not they become good thinkers, are highly irrelevant to the 90% of common jobs we find. That's why we have to consider that what universities cater for, as a whole, may not be the small percentage that are there to be stimulated, but the larger percentage that just want to get their degree as fast as possible - no fuss.

I agree. In most degrees, the person with the highest grades graduates with the same qualifications and experience as the person at the other end of the spectrum.

Of course this isn't true for all degrees but you get the picture.

[Russ]

In most degrees, the person with the highest grades graduates with the same qualifications and experience as the person at the other end of the spectrum.

What makes you say this? Both people graduate with a degree, but there's a vast difference between them in terms of ability/experience/employability/transcript quality etc.

[MJRomeo81]

What makes you say this? Both people graduate with a degree, but there's a vast difference between them in terms of ability/experience/employability/transcript quality etc.

I meant it as in what the employer can perceive at first glance, and that's all that matters when applying for a job at most (but not all) organisations.

[appianway]

Hmm I'd definitely say that opportunities govern what sort of jobs you can get, and in some instances, these are governed by your institution. A lot of YDN alums head to the Wall St Journal or the New York Times (or the Boston Globe); the journalism experience you get as a writer for something like the YDN is far above what you'd receive elsewhere. You can't really work on the YDN without being affiliated with Yale. If an employer had to choose between someone who'd been editor in chief of the YDN and someone who'd edited a monthly paper at (insert state university), I think the YDN writer would have an edge.

[appianway]

But on the contrary, what we have to admit is that we're all people in the end,
When education is all done and dusted, and we're out of university, does it really matter whether we went to Harvard or Yale or to some lousy university here in Australia
Like if I were to engage in a random conversation with someone on a train, for example, the last thing on my mind would be how educated that particular person may be.
I agree that with a good education comes a sort of prejudice, for example, I do notice myself "laughing at" (not intending to be condescending of course) on kids that go to "lower" secondary schools, but that doesn't mean that I think any less of them as fellow people.

Anyway, enough of a little rant,
Onto the topic of what universities, I'm still of the belief that universities are what you might call "degree factories" - they take in students and throw them out with degrees so that they can enter the workforce, whether or not they are intellectually stimulated, and whether or not they become good thinkers, are highly irrelevant to the 90% of common jobs we find. That's why we have to consider that what universities cater for, as a whole, may not be the small percentage that are there to be stimulated, but the larger percentage that just want to get their degree as fast as possible - no fuss.

It might have just been the way I was brought up, to believe that education is merely a means of getting a job

--------

btw, appianway, what are you doing at yale?

Whoops, should probably respond to this. I really don't think an education is just about getting a job: the different things I've learned over my 18 years have changed the way in which I view the world. To me, that's priceless. I do get what you're saying though: irrespective of where we attend university (or whether we attend at all) has no bearing on whether we're decent people... we're all human. That said, I think one's university can seriously influence job outcomes, but it honestly depends on what you're comparing...

As for what I'm studying at Yale, I'm not sure. I'll probably declare my major at the end of this year (or at the end of next), but at the moment, I'm strongly considering studying either physics or economics. I'm currently taking microeconomics, advanced french, multivariable calculus, perspectives in science and engineering, and islamic societies, culture and politics... it sounds strange, but there are definitely connections between all of the different fields. I'm enjoying it.

[MuggedByReality]

But on the contrary, what we have to admit is that we're all people in the end,
When education is all done and dusted, and we're out of university, does it really matter whether we went to Harvard or Yale or to some lousy university here in Australia
Like if I were to engage in a random conversation with someone on a train, for example, the last thing on my mind would be how educated that particular person may be.
I agree that with a good education comes a sort of prejudice, for example, I do notice myself "laughing at" (not intending to be condescending of course) on kids that go to "lower" secondary schools, but that doesn't mean that I think any less of them as fellow people.

Anyway, enough of a little rant,
Onto the topic of what universities, I'm still of the belief that universities are what you might call "degree factories" - they take in students and throw them out with degrees so that they can enter the workforce, whether or not they are intellectually stimulated, and whether or not they become good thinkers, are highly irrelevant to the 90% of common jobs we find. That's why we have to consider that what universities cater for, as a whole, may not be the small percentage that are there to be stimulated, but the larger percentage that just want to get their degree as fast as possible - no fuss.

It might have just been the way I was brought up, to believe that education is merely a means of getting a job

--------

btw, appianway, what are you doing at yale?

Whoops, should probably respond to this. I really don't think an education is just about getting a job: the different things I've learned over my 18 years have changed the way in which I view the world. To me, that's priceless. I do get what you're saying though: irrespective of where we attend university (or whether we attend at all) has no bearing on whether we're decent people... we're all human. That said, I think one's university can seriously influence job outcomes, but it honestly depends on what you're comparing...

As for what I'm studying at Yale, I'm not sure. I'll probably declare my major at the end of this year (or at the end of next), but at the moment, I'm strongly considering studying either physics or economics. I'm currently taking microeconomics, advanced french, multivariable calculus, perspectives in science and engineering, and islamic societies, culture and politics... it sounds strange, but there are definitely connections between all of the different fields. I'm enjoying it.

That's so interesting; can you expound upon that?

[appianway]

One of the things that I'm considering is economics, for instance. Multivariable is a foundation for upper level economics, and the EU often operates in French. The sociology that I'm studying is really interesting, because it gives a foundation of how societies develop (in the context of Islam), and that definitely relates to economics (specialisation of trade, etc...) and as for the perspectives in science course? Part of our last discussion involved geologic deposits and the "market economy" for grants. And that's just looking at it from the perspective of economics.

[paulsterio]

Whoops, should probably respond to this. I really don't think an education is just about getting a job: the different things I've learned over my 18 years have changed the way in which I view the world. To me, that's priceless. I do get what you're saying though: irrespective of where we attend university (or whether we attend at all) has no bearing on whether we're decent people... we're all human. That said, I think one's university can seriously influence job outcomes, but it honestly depends on what you're comparing...

As for what I'm studying at Yale, I'm not sure. I'll probably declare my major at the end of this year (or at the end of next), but at the moment, I'm strongly considering studying either physics or economics. I'm currently taking microeconomics, advanced french, multivariable calculus, perspectives in science and engineering, and islamic societies, culture and politics... it sounds strange, but there are definitely connections between all of the different fields. I'm enjoying it.

Yeah I get what you mean I guess, but I think the fact that I've yet to really experience uni yet really means my views can be quite limited D:
But one day, many years down the track I guess I'll come to understand

oh right, woah, that's a lot of subjects
but i get what you mean as to there's connections though, I guess it's kinda like how I enjoy English and Maths, they're my favourite subjects, but some people seem to think that you get "mathsy" people and "english-humanities-y" people, but when I think about it, I enjoy both because they're fundamentally related somehow - for example they both have to do with explaining and expressing your thoughts on it