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Author Topic: First year law @ Monash  (Read 5632 times)  Share 

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Hamdog17

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First year law @ Monash
« on: January 08, 2012, 07:45:02 pm »
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Hi, it looks likely I'll be studying science/law or biomed/law next year at Monash. I only discovered law is something I might like to go into half way through last year and I haven't had much time to research and haven't done any work experience yet. Could I please gauge a general opinion from law students on the following:
-Science/law and biomed/law which is better? Which is easier? What in the long term is better?
-What is it like being a patent lawyer? What are the conditions (eg. Pay, hours)?
-What is medico-legal law like? What are the conditions?
-I'm aware specialities exist in law but can/ do you have to study further to get post grad qualifications to call yourself a patent lawyer for example?
-How do you do well in the first few years of law?
-Are there things I should be doing now for my career in the future? (eg. Prizes, competitions, work experience)
-What should I study now? (I have no experience with humanity subjects other than geo)
-How do you get a good clerkship at a large prestigious firm? Is this important? Can you do a clerkship at any firm?

Thanks, excuse my ignorance and naïvety


ninwa

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 04:51:08 pm »
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Paging lynt.br, science/law student...

There's no telling which is better unless you tell us what careers you are looking at.

What exactly do you mean by medico-legal law?

No you do not have to study further to specialise. Might help to do some intellectual property related electives but yeah, that's it.

How to do well: study. Get notes from previous year students. Read your cases, don't just rely on summary textbooks (I am so guilty of this).

Legal experience if you can. Even if it's photocopying letters for a lawyer. You can still put it on your resume as "law firm experience".
There will be mooting/negotiation/letter-writing competitions every year, they're painful and eat up your time but do as many as you can.

There's nothing you can really study on your own right now. Enjoy your holidays. You won't have many after this.
Go read some of the notes lynt.br has put up if you insist on working ahead. Probably won't help much though, some of the topics you really do need a lecturer to explain to you.

How to get a clerkship:
- minimum distinction average
- co-curriculars: mooting competitions etc. Get an office-bearing position in the LSS if you can. Apply to be a first-year representative or whatever the hell it's called.
- legal experience: even secretarial work at a law firm helps. Volunteer at a legal aid centre (you generally need to be 2 or 3 years into your degree to do this). If you're still around after completing 2 years I can get you a semi-legal-related job (my workplace is often looking for people)
- extra-curriculars: volunteering n shit. I know people who've taken a semester off to volunteer in Africa and stuff just for this

Clerkship is pretty important if you want to be a lawyer. All graduates need to study at a college of law to be accredited for practice (an example is the Leo Cussen Institute - google it). It is damned expensive but if you get a clerkship often the law firm will pay for you to do it. Otherwise you'll need to pay it on your own.
If you don't want to be a lawyer then you can get a clerkship for the experience but it's not entirely necessary.
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Hamdog17

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 05:40:26 pm »
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Thanks that's answered heaps.
I thought medico-legal law was stuff like medical indemnity, malpractice, legal compliance to government health regulations stuff like that? I thought a clerkship was like an internship for a doctor, everyone has to do one to practise or not? Except in medicine it's like a paying job but this isn't the case with law you pay? Also does one do exams during your clerkship to be admitted to the bar or am I completely wrong? Excuse my noobness again

ninwa

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 05:52:37 pm »
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- you can do all of that without a medical degree
- you don't need a clerkship to be admitted to practice, as far as I know
- I'm pretty sure most clerkships will pay you
- the paying I was referring to is the one-year College of Law course that you have to do. If you can get a clerkship, the law firm will often pay for you to do that course, is all
- I don't know, I assume you need to do exams to complete your college of law course. Here are the steps you need to take to be admitted to the bar. This is for becoming a barrister - the people who go to court to argue stuff.
You can also be a solicitor, I don't think that requires you to be admitted to the bar.
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lynt.br

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 12:50:36 am »
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mmm i can't really say whether science or biomed is better and ultimately if you want to work as a lawyer it doesn't matter which you choose (subject to one minor qualification that I will list below).

I don't know that much about biomed but my perception is that it is harder than science. From people I know doing biomed they often say there is a ridiculous amount of material to learn and a lot of rote learning. If you are just interested in the academic side of biomed, consider that you can do science majors that pretty much cover the same material (molecular biology, biochem, genetics, microbiology etc). I think the only thing you can't do in these science majors which you do in biomed is cut up cadavers :P

so to answer first question, science i think is easier. I don't think it matters what you take in the long term. If you want a lab job either science or biomed can get you there. If you want a law job, then your non-law degree doesn't really matter (I mean I know performing arts/law people who work at Mallesons).
There is one small issue however which i alluded to above. A few of specialist intellectual property and patent firms require a major in chemistry or chemical engineering. I haven't really researched this much but there may be a way around it but just something for you to keep in mind. Also specialist patent firms aren't really as 'law' related as you may think. If you look up the profiles of the partners at such firms (Davies Collison Cave, Griffith Hack) a lot of them come from science backgrounds. Many of them have PhD's and quite a few don't even have law degrees. Also these aren't really firms you can start working in once you graduate. You will most likely want to start at a more 'general' law firm rather than a specialist firm.

i have not much clue about work conditions as a patent lawyers. I have been told by lawyers that intellectual property is a very niche area of law and isn't really something most people specialise in. Often you work in a range of different areas.

No idea about medico law...

How to do well in first year law... umm, first don't put off your court report assignment to the last day! Don't think you'll just rock up to Court and see a nice case to write on, you'll either walk into some month long murder case or a 10 second traffic offense case. I recommend going to the Magistrates Court and sitting in on a civil hearing (The clerk will probably tell you to go to the criminal courts but unless endless traffic offences is your thing I'd suggest you hear a civil case, usually better to write on - not just because they are longer but because the essay topic is usually about access to justice or something and a lot of people are self-represented in these simple civil matters because legal aid doesn't cover civil cases - instant discussion point right there).

If you're doing contracts then really just stay up to date and do heaps of practice problems such as the ones you get in your tutorials. It's one thing to know the law and another to be able tow rite an answer under time pressure and law exams are usually a massive race against the clock.

Quote
Are there things I should be doing now for my career in the future? (eg. Prizes, competitions, work experience)
basically do what ninwa said :P It can be quite hard getting a legal related job in first year because most first years only really have retail experience or something similar. Try to work your way up to these types of jobs though. That might mean starting with something like reception or basic office jobs (filing letters, photocopying stuff, coffee boy) and moving up from there. Volunteering at community legal centres is a good way to get law related work experience but they are very competitive to get in to. Try not to overcommit too much with work because you don't want it to hurt your grades so much and it is very easy to take too much on in your first year of uni.

for first year do all the competitions you can and ideally win as many as you can :P The moots are probably the most important but also the most stressful and time consuming. If you can spare the time, do the general moot at the start of the year. This is basically the open moot where you will be up against 3rd years so you will probably get slaughtered but the important thing is to experience what mooting is like. Then once first year moot rolls around you will have a tremendous advantage over everyone else because while every one else has no idea what is going on you will probably be far more confident. The teams that win the first year moot tend to have also participated in the general moot as well.

Also socialising is important. make sure you get to know people in the LSS because you will be dealing with them a lot and it helps down the track if you want to apply for LSS positions. Also it helps to now people in the year above you because its a constant source of notes, advice and books :P


There is really nothing you need to study now. If you are totally bored i guess you can start reading the Laying Down the Law textbook but it is very dry and just to give you some basis of the Australian legal system (which you'll cover in lectures anyway).

ninwa

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 01:03:46 am »
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Just another general tip to doing well in law - writing law exams is a skill in itself that you need to develop. You'll usually get provided with sample HD answers to past exam questions. Read them and try to emulate their structure. Not only could you gain insights that you never thought of before, it also helps you to see what "shortcuts" are acceptable and what isn't.

I didn't do this in semester 1, and wasted so much time unnecessarily writing out words like "plaintiff" and "respondent" and constructing all these beautiful sentences, not realising that you could almost write in dot points and still get full marks as long as you attacked all the relevant issues etc. Like lynt said, law exams are a race against time, so every second saved is precious.
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Hamdog17

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 10:25:35 am »
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Thanks guys, @lynt.br can I still do the bio/chem engineering major in my science degree? Because I've heard the eng/law double is too intense and I would I ideally like to avoid that...

lynt.br

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 12:45:33 pm »
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Thanks guys, @lynt.br can I still do the bio/chem engineering major in my science degree? Because I've heard the eng/law double is too intense and I would I ideally like to avoid that...

well i just mentioned that because it seemed from the specialist patent offices i looked at that they required a major in chemistry (which you can get from a science degree) or major in chemical engineering (if you are doing an eng degree). buuut i didn't look into it that much and probably you can still get employed in those areas with a similar major like biochem or molecular bio or something. A lot of those patent offices are more sciency than law anyway so I don't really know much about them sry.

edit:
just to clarify there are generally two branches in this area: patent attorneys and intellectual property lawyers. The former is generally more 'sciency' in that you need a science or engineering degree (and not necessarily a law degree) most likely with post-grad qualifications (hons or more preferably a PhD). A lot of patent attorneys come from a background of lab work or something similar. Their work is a bit more technical.
Some firms require a major in chemistry or chemical engineering but others are more accepting of other science majors - it depends on what the firm specialises in. The two largest firms I know of will also accept majors in the life sciences/biotechnology.

Intellectual property lawyers as the name suggests require a law degree.  You don't need a science degree but it helps. If you are a law graduate this is probably where you will want to be heading. The work is more commercial than technical.

I recommend you take a look at these sites, they are 2 major IP, patent and trademark firms:
http://www.davies.com.au/index.php
http://www.griffithhack.com.au/Home
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:30:45 pm by lynt.br »

Hamdog17

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 03:05:14 pm »
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Those firms look interesting. So is IP law a good field- pay wise, hours, stress, competition, job security, job availability, etc.? Thanks

ninwa

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 03:47:53 pm »
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There are so many legal fields, what you want to do now is probably not going to be what you want to do after 3 years of law school. So stop thinking about pay and all that and worry about your marks first. You won't even get to choose electives until around 3rd year.
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Hamdog17

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 04:49:51 pm »
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Sorry for stuffing you guys but I just got offered a place in medicine and will be accepting. Thank you for your time and I guess this thread will serve as a good reference for others.

ninwa

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 09:03:53 am »
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Smart move :P
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Christiano

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Re: First year law @ Monash
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 02:58:50 pm »
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I am looking to get into a science/law related career and coincidentally, IP law and patents was what I was looking to get into. This thread helped me a lot so thanks!
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