view on evolution?

[enwiabe]

But enwibee, I'd like you to consider the following:

We are considering the human body and it's immense complexity, Abraham argues that due to the complexity the of the human body, he believes that there is a creator as it is too complex to have arisen by chance. I understand that in your mind you have disproved this by challenging his logic, but you have not qualified your own logic for there certainly being no designer. Thus, I will now challenge your logic. How is it that you see something and make the conclusion that there is no designer?

So in the end, it really does just come down to what you believe, not what you can qualify, because you just cannot and this is not a decision like 'Is there toast in the fridge?' and not necessarily one bound in logic. Life, is often not bound in logic, it's not necessary that the answer to this question is either, so sometimes you just believe what you do, and that's it.

In fact, I know that evolution by natural selection caused our complexity over literally millions of years. The complexity arose from trillions of mutations occurring before we finally became the human body that you see today.

That's not a belief. that's a scientific theory supported by mountains of evidence. My logic is extremely well qualified by any biology textbook from the last 150 years.

[abeybaby]

Also, your "ease up, it's not a trial" is bizarre. If you were wrongfully accused of something, you'd be wanting to clear your name too.

okay:

I think your entire post was just a bit of mental masturbation trying to cut a position that places you squarely above both of us?... Your entire post is "lolz semantics".

If your argument for god is "look at how amazing all of this is", because its complexity is unfathomable to you, then for you, god is simply an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance.

But don't dip your toes in and then all of a sudden call "insult" when somebody critiques your views. That is intellectual abdication of the highest order.

I used to watch your hypocrisy passively, i thought it wasnt my business. i would have done well to have realise it would eventually be turned on me.

now,

If you are arguing that the human body is designed, which you are, then -you- are implying a designer. And your argument for this design is that you are simply unable to fathom a natural explanation for the human body. And to that, I say, "If that is your reasoning for god, then your god is simply an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance." (loosely paraphrased from Neil deGrasse Tyson)

you have made the logical fallacy that the complexity of the human body is my reasoning for god. i purposely didnt present it that way because it is not my reasoning for god. god is my reasoning behind the complexity, the complexity is not my reasoning behind god. If you cannot delineate between the two, then maybe you shouldn't be debating the topic. my reasoning for god lies in my own personal experiences which places his existence, and involvement in my life, beyond my doubt - its application to you is neither relevant, nor in my intention, and that, is not up to you to debate.

I did NOT insult you. I called your beliefs a load of horse manure. There's a difference, and you'd do well to learn it.

my basis for offence doesn't lie in your criticism of christianity, which is something that i fully support (i make criticism of religions including my own very regularly), but rather it lies in the fact that you made an insult to my intellect on the basis of your own inability to understand logical literacy.

enwibee, everyone supports critical thinking. no one supports the way you patronise and condescend on the members of your own forum. be respectful when you come to criticise something.

[Bozo]

You've avoided the question, it is entirely possible that a God intelligently designed man and set up natural selection in the universe he intelligently designed. Let's reduce the question, the big bang occurred, I'm sure we'll both agree. I am saying that, the big bang was initiated by a God. I don't want you to disprove my view, I simply want you to qualify your own beyond any reasonable doubt that it was certain that no god exists and it happened independent of any God.

[paulsterio]

I think the distinction between insulting someone and making a valid criticism is when you get personal.

Let's forget religion for the moment and talk about food.

Let's just say I like pizza.

If you were to say "Pizza tastes shit" - I wouldn't be offended because you're making an objective statement about Pizza. I would sit down with you and discuss why I think Pizza is a good food.

If you were, however, to say "Pizza tastes like shit and you are stupid for even liking it" - I would be offended, but not because you made a statement about Pizza, but because you called me stupid when I have the right to like whatever food I like, just like how other people can believe what they want to.

There's a fine line between attacking the ideologies of the religion itself and personally attacking the followers of that religion.

[abeybaby]

I think the distinction between insulting someone and making a valid criticism is when you get personal.

Let's forget religion for the moment and talk about food.

Let's just say I like pizza.

If you were to say "Pizza tastes shit" - I wouldn't be offended because you're making an objective statement about Pizza. I would sit down with you and discuss why I think Pizza is a good food.

If you were, however, to say "Pizza tastes like shit and you are stupid for even liking it" - I would be offended, but not because you made a statement about Pizza, but because you called me stupid when I have the right to like whatever food I like, just like how other people can believe what they want to.

There's a fine line between attacking the ideologies of the religion itself and personally attacking the followers of that religion.

very well said IMO

[JellyDonut]

you people will argue over anything y/n

[enwiabe]

"Post was mental masturbation".

I thought the post was rubbish.

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance."

Notice, I said that it is scientific ignorance, not your ignorance. Scientific ignorance is simply those answers which science is yet to uncover.

"Intellectual abdication"

Yes, I think that your copout was an abdication of the argument. Again, not a personal insult, merely pointing out that you refused to engage when it didn't suit you.

So you're 0 for 3. None of those were insulting you personally, they were merely criticising your arguments (or in the latter case, your non-argument).

And, no, there is implicit reasoning that if you write "the more I learn about the human body, the more I am convinced it is not a random occurrence" there is a logical breakdown as follows:

- You don't know X about the body.
- You learn X about the body.
- Learning X about the body causes you to think it is not a random occurrence
- If it is not a random occurrence, it must have been purposefully designed, or guided at the very least.
- You have stated that you are a christian, and you therefore believe in a creator
- Ergo, with every X you learn about the body, you feel it is evidence for lord jeebus

Bozo, and to you I say the scientific ignorance quote applies even more.

You'll also actually find that I never said that no god exists and I can know that for sure. I've never said that, I have always maintained being an agnostic atheist. I am certain that the christian version of god is a lie. This is through an absurd number of logical contradiction. As for abiogenesis being the result of some tinkering aliens? Maybe, but in the absence of any evidence for such theories, it's utter nonsense to subscribe your entire life to the view. So your entire argument is simply a strawman that you've stumped up.

[Camo]

With these kind of threads we need to be conscious of the thoughts of the community and not our own ideologies. Whether you believe in religion or science is besides the matter.

Now lets look at it, evolution is proven by science, and Enwiabe is correct by saying that. However going to the point of attacking someone's beliefs is clearly wrong in my opinion, and does not represent the ATAR Notes community. Religion has existed for thousands of years, and it has made some underlying important contributions to the modern world.

Honestly, when going into a thread like this we just need to be aware that people have beliefs, and attacking someone for believing in a certain thing is wrong in this day and age.

[abeybaby]

ive made all the points i wanted to make, i'll write no further posts on this thread.

[enwiabe]

ive made all the points i wanted to make, i'll write no further posts on this thread.

Yeah well FYI, the only person to make any actual personal insults here was you.

"I used to watch your hypocrisy passively, i thought it wasnt my business. i would have done well to have realise it would eventually be turned on me."

Really feelin' that Christian love

[Camo]

I know this has taken a bit of a side step off of the topic of evolution but I just want to make the point that religion does have its benefits, even if this thread is being attacked only for its negatives. As a spiritual agnostic I firmly believe that even if I don't fully lean towards the belief of God, it is still nice to at times engage in prayer or meditation and feel as if their is a God, without having evidence but still having hope.

Apart from this topic religion does bring forth idealistic morals that we do seek in our time. Religion can bring people together in times of need (death), it can raise the importance of community and the fact that as need to love our fellow man.

Even if it scientific ignorance from someone such as enwibee's view, to someone like me acting from anecdotal experience, I do believe it is nice to have the feeling of being listened to and cared for my someone that may or may not exist.

[ninwa]

and on that note, locked for off-topic

(damnit, missed my bet by 1 page)