Breakdown

[brenden]

pi, I can't help but feel an undercurrent of elitism in your posts. If I could super-summarise; "Those who have the means and want to learn can get it wonderfully, but those who can't or didn't seek an opportunity can cop it".
What about those who don't have the academic ability to get into a select entry school?
On 'opportunities for those who want to look', I didn't even know select entry schools existed until I was in Year 11, and in Year 8 I was more concerned with avoiding bullies than looking for an educational opportunity that would let me thrive.
On not being academically focused and trades etc - my school has what they tell us is the best VCAL program in the state, whereas our VCE results have been slowly rising from a 24 median in 2007 when it opened. Disregarding SES which is admittedly low etc, 'good teachers' would absolutely change quite a lot. Probably the biggest factor of not wanting to 'do well' in my school is the perceived inability to do well. No one dares aim more than 90. Good teachers would absolutely focus kids. When I look at my education, classes were tame for the charismatic and passionate teachers and an absolute riot for those who weren't. People in a low SES area, family problems and all the other variables you've mentioned need some hope and stability, both of which good teachers can offer. I'd like to reply more comprehensively but my girlfriend has put the banhammer on procrastination and is looking at me like a hawk at the moment. I'll come back some time soon.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[pi]

"Those who have the means and want to learn can get it wonderfully, but those who can't or didn't seek an opportunity can cop it"

I don't see what's so elitist about having motivation to find an atmosphere that suits you in early secondary school, but if it came off at elitist, I sincerely apologise, that was not my intention at all. And "no", they are not "copping" anything. Teachers only go so far in VCE, a lot of other factors come into play too. This sums up these sentiments well:

At the end of the day, VCE and school itself is entirely what you make of it...teachers, friends and education system aside, it really is your VCE.

If teachers were everything, the median at Mac.Rob/MHS would be closer to 98.

It's never too late to pick up that motivation either, I know someone who moved into Mac.Rob in yr11 from a western suburb school and she's now in my Med cohort and is a genuinely nice person, whilst another, went to western school and is also in Med and equally as nice.

Motivation is key, and I'd argue that most people who aspire to be high achievers have this motivation to get there, and that also encompasses finding opprtunities for themselves. It's not eletist imo (I feel very privileged to have gone to MHS and prior to that, UHS, very privileged. And there wasn't a day I took that for granted, and never a day when I pass MHS by train that I don't feel thankful for being there).

As I said:

there are a variety of factors involved including family background, socioeconomic status, friendship groups, etc

I acknowledge that not all parents would think to hit Google to see what academic opportunities there are for their kids back when they are only in Grade 5 or 6, and that most kids wouldn't be thinking that far anyway. Schools know that, which is why scholarships/select entry programs/selective schools all take an intake up to yr12. And those opportunities are available to all (except those that I mentioned having unfortunate severe financial/family/medical issues).

whereas our VCE results have been slowly rising from a 24 median in 2007 when it opened. Disregarding SES which is admittedly low etc, 'good teachers' would absolutely change quite a lot.

You know your school infinity times better than I, so let's say that statement is 100% true. What can someone say to good teachers working at MHS/Mac.Rob/MGS/etc. (the top-tier schools) to get them to teach at schools like yours. Schools where there hasn't been a strong academic record and progress in this regard will be limited (as I said, it took YEARS to for MHS/Mac.Rob/top privates to get to where they are).

Also, I'm not sure with your school, but a LOT of the schools in question re: "lower" academic performance, have serious discipline issues. IMHO, that needs to be tackled well before you start bringing in good teachers. Fix the culture -> teachers would want to teach there -> better results. Bringing in amazing teachers by themselves, isn't going to make a huge difference to most schools imo (yours might be an exception according to your post, I don't know).

It's tough, but I maintain that teachers would like to work in an environment where students appreciate them and on the whole, give them the respect they deserve. And from what I have heard from local schools in my area, this just not happen.

What about those who don't have the academic ability to get into a select entry school?

There are other pathways, look to private schools for scholarships (and don't just look at the top tier if you don't think you can make it) and look to select entry learning programs in many govt high schools around the state. More and more are opening every year.

[Eriny]

The debate is pretty robust here, but to the OP: it's good that you have a strong social conscious and if these issues make you feel passionate, there are things you can do to get involved and create a more just society for those who experience disadvantage. You are certainly not alone in thinking that the system fails to serve the needs of everyone. However, every activist needs to know that self-care comes first. You need to learn how to shut those worries off in order to live a happy, productive, and balanced life. Learn to compartmentalise.

[slothpomba]

I'm sick of this fucking VCE system. It's just some bull shit fucking archaic system where we're just some god damn numbers and they (meaning the people who invented this bull shit system) think that it's alright to subject people to this system.

I feel that man, bits of it are definitely bullshit. However, try dream up an alternative, it aint all that easy. I reckon we have a pretty *decent* system compared to how it used to go years ago or how it still is in other countries.

Also, I really want to talk about the massive disparity between public schools. I have been to several schools, both public and private, and it does FUCKING piss me off how some public schools are SO MUCH BETTER than others. This correlation can be seen in the god damn VCE results.

Why should my friends, who go to bad schools (I believe I can say bad schools as I do not feel as though I should just suger coat 'facts' and other bull shit like some said education minister) have TERRIBLE teachers. I use to attend the school in question and let me say this, I can definitely see the differences in teachers, facilities and cohort.

....

This is what pisses me off. It just feels as though the better schools will obviously get the better teachers and this correlation will be seen with the results. Take my opinion with a grain of salt but I have been to both sectors and hence why I am saying all this.

I don't think you're looking deep enough. It's not the school so much. Is it a coincidence that schools in lower SES (aka poorer) areas do worse?

My school had a year 11 and 12 only campus. Every teacher was a VCE teacher and that only. Every teacher knew all about VCE. We were one of the largest catholic schools in the state. The government absolutely threw piles and piles of money at us. I'm talking literal millions. As part of the whole education revolution thing, we had a bakery, a restaurant, a theater (like an actual one, not just a hall), a sign writing workshop, picture framing workshop, new labs, every student with a iPad. I guess they wanted to buy the catholic vote.

I've always been interested in the results. I compared the past few years. Compared to the public school down the road, our results were almost identical. Median atar, median SS, % over 40. All of it. It mattered squat in this case.

Most of the students weren't well off at all. Almost all of them had parents from blue collar backgrounds and a good majority from non-English speaking/first generation backgrounds. The fees with various ways of doing them could get as low as about $3000 a year. So, we weren't some posh school at all.

The school down the road (won't name names) had PARENTS/RELATIVES show up with baseball bats during lunch to assault this kid because they did something to another kid. Another time a kid burnt down a building or something. The west side can be a rough place man. My school had its fair share of things which i probably shouldn't talk about since a lot of it isn't known in the wider community.

The fact is, compared to a lot of schools, we did fairly crap. Despite all the money thrown at us. Despite attracting rather good and experienced teachers (fair few had postgrad qualifications). We still didn't do fantastic.

A lot of this speaks deeper. It speaks to the poverty and financial disadvantage, it speaks to poor family circumstances and other horrible things, to non-english speaking backgrounds. All those things that come with a low SES status. You're a fool if you think all the root causes of academic problems start and finish at school. I know people who had horrible family enviroments, serious drug/alcohol problems or abusive. Lack of money and other stresses like that. The list goes on and on.

Remember the other school down the road? The one that sounds like something out of Afghanistan almost? A fair few of my friends went there, despite being seriously under-resourced and still got 90's.

They put in the work, they worked damn hard and they got results. While your school can disadvantage you, at the end of the day, everyone takes the same test. Even with a horrible teacher, if you're actually capable to begin with, you are certainly able to learn via other methods.

Even with the implementation of SEAS, I still feel as though this 'system' will NEVER adequately do these people justice.

 Can they really believe that SEAS should cover just Year's 11 and 12? Have they experience educational disadvantage in ONLY those years?

You can nitpick SEAS all you want but the fact is SEAS existing is a shit-load better than SEAS not existing.

Honestly, you seem to make out like the worst thing that can happen to a person is going to a shitty school. I know plenty of people who came from abusive families. That is a real problem right there. They'd happily trade it for a less academically inclined school any day of the week.

ALL schools have different curriculums and due to these curriculums, that this will definitely develop an individuals mind. What about if you attended a not so well off school? From personal experience, even if you are coming in as a strong year 7, you will gradually decline in academic potential, when compared to your peers (From other schools) who are most likely having an 'elite' curriculum, and hence, even when in year 11 or 12, you won't be as academically able as the students, who from year 7, are already prepared for the 'higher order' thinking.

Years 7 - 10 don't really mean much at all. It's more babysitting whilst hopefully teaching you about the world rather than preparing you for rigorous academics.

You complain we don't have enough creativity or time to explore or opportunities to be shaped as a general person, those are in 7 - 10. You learn all about history, civilizations, the basics of science, how a government works, languages, literature, etc. Surprisingly, a fair few people our age still don't even understand how the government works, how we vote or the fact that we dont actually elect the prime minister. Thats a big problem right there.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You complain we dont have enough general education and we're shuttled into the system too fast but you also complain that 7-10 doesn't train you for some kind of rigorous academic gladiator match. Choose one position.

I'm fine with 7-10 as it is really. I think an extra year of VCE would be a very good choice though.

I think you're ignoring a lot of the root problems and a lot of the root causes. You have to be pretty intelligent/able/have supportive parents to make it into McRob/MHS to begin with. Disadvantage doesn't start or stop at just a crappy school. It goes much deeper. We have a pretty good system all things considered.

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Teachers want to move to good schools, I agree with that, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that bad teachers cause a lot of harm to bad public schools. I have heard stories of teachers who are unfamiliar with the course they teach - I think this is a problem with teaching in general though - issues which I won't go through here because they are lengthy and irrelevant.

I'm very reluctant to blame the teachers, there are much more widespread problems in the community and in the schooling system but a good teacher or a great teacher can make so much difference it isn't funny. I speak from experience having maybe one or two good teachers and seeing people take the same subject with a horrible teacher. It really, really does matter.

What i found really shocking is that hardly any teachers scored over 90. Something like 1/3 of teaching graduates had an atar under something like 60. In other places, in particular Finland and other parts of Europe, teaching is a well regarded profession. In Australia, for a lot of people, its regarded as a bit of a cop out. In those places, its a rigorous, long course.

It doesn't really make sense to set an ATAR cap on teaching places. We might wind up with a teacher shortage. Lets not forget the ATAR for a course is purely demand driven. The clearly in is the mark of the last person to fill a place. If there were 5 places, you take the 5 highest applicants. The entry score is that of the lowest applicant who GOT IN last year. It's clear teaching isn't really in demand, especially amongst those at the top. We need to fix this.

http://theconversation.edu.au/gonski-review-time-for-a-new-vision-for-australian-education-5340

[thushan]

I can't agree with you enough King.

However, one point that I'd like to pick a tiny bone on - "Years 7 - 10 don't really mean much at all. It's more babysitting whilst hopefully teaching you about the world rather than preparing you for rigorous academics."

I'd say it's less about babysitting and more about developing critical thinking skills, problem solving skills and creativity (which I would argue you have ample time for in Years 7 to 10 and even to an extent in VCE) to prepare you for the rigorous world of academia - the critical problem solving skills could be in the field of humanities in argumentative essay writing and debating, or in science where we look for potential holes in experiments and studies. Creativity could be in the humanities, where you could learn to write poetry or creative pieces, or suggest and attempt to implement programs for the social good, or it could be in the sciences where you devise experiments and studies or suggest some form of invention, or it could be in maths where you figure out new and unusual ways to solve problems. For instance, last year in Spesh, our teacher gave us a problem to solve (it was a trig identity) - we went through it together in class and we were trying to feel for the solution by expanding and 'bashing out' the expression; it took up two whole whiteboards, and we couldn't solve it properly because the algebra got too messy. Now, this is where creativity comes in. I stared at the expression for a while, and then an unusual idea popped into my head, not a technique we were taught in class, or anywhere. I quickly derived the formula I needed to confirm my theory and then solved that identity with two lines of working.

Personally, I think one thing my school got right was this - I came into Year 11 prepared with the necessary skills to tackle VCE.