Should students that do Specialist be restricted from Further?

[Stick]

Ugh. I wish my school wouldn't do what it does and encourage all the strong Maths students to do all three subjects. I do think something needs to be done because it's simply not fair for the kids who actually belong in Further.

I went into Further last year not expecting to do Specialist Maths, but I had to do GMA so I wouldn't forget my 1/2 Methods knowledge from Year 10. I ended up doing really well at it and I would've been stupid not to have picked Specialist Maths in the end.

[FlorianK]

The whole 4 math thing is redundant bullshit, you should only be allowed to choose 1 math, 1 english etc.
I mean you could get into med with the following subjects:
English
Further
Methods
Spesh
UMEP
Chem

So basically you did only 3 subjects. VCE should promote diversity rather than doing 3 math and forcing everybody doing spesh to do methods.

[thushan]

The whole 4 math thing is redundant bullshit, you should only be allowed to choose 1 math, 1 english etc.
I mean you could get into med with the following subjects:
English
Further
Methods
Spesh
UMEP
Chem

So basically you did only 3 subjects. VCE should promote diversity rather than doing 3 math and forcing everybody doing spesh to do methods.

The problem is that Methods is a PREREQUISITE for spesh.
But I agree that we should have Physics Basic and Physics Advanced, and have that for the other science subjects - where difficulty lies in the complexity of the theory.

And Spesh should be a prereq for Physics Advanced.

We really should have a "Chem Advanced" - we are SO FAR behind the rest of the world in secondary chemistry education...take it from the person who competed internationally in the Chemistry Olympiad. The Australian team needed a helluva lot of extra training to bring us up to international standard.

Physics should also seriously be vamped up. Actually you know what, I agree with Pi. VCE Physics sucks.

[Planck's constant]

Maths is unique in that students are streamed according to ability from as early as year 8 (this happened in my school and I know it happens in other similar schools).
Those in the top stream are accelerated to do Methods 3/4 in Year 11 and Specialist in Year 12.
I believe it is completely pointless for those students to also do Further in Year 12. It's like Barcelona FC playing in Division 4.
Why not UMEP Maths for those students?. You can get the same ATAR increment, learn useful things, and earn University credits.

[ealam2]

Just a quick question. I'm doing GMA (General Maths Advanced) this year and then at the end of the year I decide I don't want to continue to Spesh, so I want to do Further in Year 12. Is there any disadvantage in doing Further Maths in year 12 without having done GMS in year 11?

[Stick]

I think a major problem in this sort of discussion is that we focus on the stronger students - I think we really need to see it from the perspective of the students who are actually meant to be in that subject. Another issue is that some schools (like mine) blindly lead naive Year 10 students into doing it because the good results reflect well on the school (6 students got 45+ in my class alone, and approximately 20% of my Further cohort got a study score above 40 - no other subject at my school even gets close to that unfortunately). I acknowledge that I should have looked into things a bit better and perhaps should have anticipated the fact that I might want to enrol in Specialist Maths in Year 12 (in hindsight, I have no regrets doing the subject just yet since I got a 50 ). This situation really just involves viewing the subject in a different manner to what we have been.

[Planck's constant]

Just a quick question. I'm doing GMA (General Maths Advanced) this year and then at the end of the year I decide I don't want to continue to Spesh, so I want to do Further in Year 12. Is there any disadvantage in doing Further Maths in year 12 without having done GMS in year 11?

No disadvantage whatsoever.

[b^3]

Maths is unique in that students are streamed according to ability from as early as year 8 (this happened in my school and I know it happens in other similar schools).
Those in the top stream are accelerated to do Methods 3/4 in Year 11 and Specialist in Year 12.
I believe it is completely pointless for those students to also do Further in Year 12. It's like Barcelona FC playing in Division 4.
Why not UMEP Maths for those students?. You can get the same ATAR increment, learn useful things, and earn University credits.

Doesn't happen in all schools, which is why its a bit unfair.

Just a quick question. I'm doing GMA (General Maths Advanced) this year and then at the end of the year I decide I don't want to continue to Spesh, so I want to do Further in Year 12. Is there any disadvantage in doing Further Maths in year 12 without having done GMS in year 11?

You'll be fine, I didn't do GMS, and did Further at the same time I was doing methods1/2 and GMA, still did well in the end - 45. It's further, its really not that hard to pick up, half of it you would have covered in previous years anyway, and the rest, there isn't really many complciated ideas in Further.

[Reckoner]

The system being mentioned where students have to do a variety of subjects, which have standard and higher levels is already available. It's called IB (International Baccalaureate). You do 6 subjects which must include an English, Maths, LOTE, humanities, Science and an arts (can be another science instead though). You have to do 3 higher level subjects and 3 standard level. The standard level is about at VCE level, but I'm not sure how much further the higher level subjects are though.

The problem is that its not offered at all that many schools, almost all of which are private so isn't an alternative for the wider state unfortunately. The list of schools that offer are found here http://bettereducation.com.au/Resources/IBSchools.aspx

On topic: I don't think they should be restricted. The 2 maths in top 4 is enough of a restriction imo, and having the specialist students in further will increase the scaling (makes it less negative) of the subject, which somewhat evens things up.   

[pi]

What I disagree in terms of the IB is the compulsory nature of it. Some people are just not LOTE people and won't ever need a LOTE for the rest of their life (for example).

[walkec]

What I disagree in terms of the IB is the compulsory nature of it. Some people are just not LOTE people and won't ever need a LOTE for the rest of their life (for example).

I totally agree with this, but I guess that's the choice you make with the IB!

[Reckoner]

What I disagree in terms of the IB is the compulsory nature of it. Some people are just not LOTE people and won't ever need a LOTE for the rest of their life (for example).

Yeah same; that's the reason I chose to do VCE. I also think the subject scoring system is better with VCE; IB has each subject given a mark out of 7. Although it is becoming increasingly popular (at my school at least, about 1/4 students in my year 12 cohort chose IB).  Each to their own I guess

[BoredSatan]

I haven't read every post but this is my opinion.

I don't think that there should be a restriction because even though Further is technically the easiest the complete course is different from Spech. If for example, Further had the exact same course as Spech but the questions were just set way easier, then maybe there could be a restriction. But because the courses are completely different, it wouldnt be fair to place such a restriction.

[Stick]

I haven't read every post but this is my opinion.

I don't think that there should be a restriction because even though Further is technically the easiest the complete course is different from Spech. If for example, Further had the exact same course as Spech but the questions were just set way easier, then maybe there could be a restriction. But because the courses are completely different, it wouldnt be fair to place such a restriction.

A very valid point. Last year was the first time I ever came across Data Analysis and Business-related Mathematics. I guess no one could argue I had an unfair advantage there.

[Conic]

If you break it up, you can see the lack of overlapping material.

Further course:
- Statistics
3 of
- Sequences and series
- Geometry and trigonometry
- Linear graphs and relations
- Business
- Networks
- Matrices

Specialist course:
- Functions
- Vectors
- Algebra
- Calculus
- Mechanics

The only things that are common to both are sequences are series, basic trigonometry, sketching linear graphs, and the use of matrices, which only apply of you do certain modules.