Is just a bachelor's degree enough?

[FunkyAfrican]

Hey guy I've just finished my year 12 exams and have been re-thinking whether just Bachelors degree in Commerce is enough, especially for management consulting and Investment Banking(here we go again right?).

I'm quite comfortable that I will get the ATAR needed for Melbourne Uni's Commerce Degree, but ultimately I'd like to do a combined Comm/Law one. I know Monash offers one but their Clayton campus would be too far(granted my ATAR would need to be as high as 97.95 of course). I've also been shocked at the exorbitant fees for Melbourne's JD program( is it really 100,000?)

So I guess I'm leaning towards Melbourne's Commerce degree for practical and commuting reasons. My question then is if a commerce degree is sufficient for these high end finance roles, given that I'll be competing against many others with combined Comm/Law degrees? I would be open to an additional year of honours in Finance. Or is it less about what you study and more about your grades and relevant work experience?

[Russ]

I've also been shocked at the exorbitant fees for Melbourne's JD program( is it really 100,000?)

Melbourne has full fee places and commonwealth sponsored places for their postgraduate programs. FFP is 100k yes. CSP is substantially less than that, and taken onto HECS (10k/year, same as undergrad law)

[FunkyAfrican]

Melbourne has full fee places and commonwealth sponsored places for their postgraduate programs. FFP is 100k yes. CSP is substantially less than that, and taken onto HECS (10k/year, same as undergrad law)

Thanks for your reply.
But isn't this CSP subsidized position quite difficult to secure due to the sheer demand and limited positions?
What scores should a person aim for to secure a CSP JD offer?

[Russ]

I don't know; I'm not a law student. I just know about FFPs and CSPs, since it always comes up.

[simpak]

My friend does FFP law and it's not a big deal because most of it is covered by FEE-HELP; more expensive in the long-run but definitely doable like don't rule it out.

[werdna]

Hey guy I've just finished my year 12 exams and have been re-thinking whether just Bachelors degree in Commerce is enough, especially for management consulting and Investment Banking(here we go again right?).

I'm quite comfortable that I will get the ATAR needed for Melbourne Uni's Commerce Degree, but ultimately I'd like to do a combined Comm/Law one. I know Monash offers one but their Clayton campus would be too far(granted my ATAR would need to be as high as 97.95 of course). I've also been shocked at the exorbitant fees for Melbourne's JD program( is it really 100,000?)

So I guess I'm leaning towards Melbourne's Commerce degree for practical and commuting reasons. My question then is if a commerce degree is sufficient for these high end finance roles, given that I'll be competing against many others with combined Comm/Law degrees? I would be open to an additional year of honours in Finance. Or is it less about what you study and more about your grades and relevant work experience?

You won't 'need' a law degree to get into management consulting, however it may give you a slight advantage if you did have one.

I think that the general consensus at uni is that most/many people do aim on doing postgrad study - 3 years of undergrad goes by very very quickly and it's hard to imagine yourself working full-time after that. So a lot of people do postgrad then start full-time work. Doing commerce keeps your options open too, there are heaps of masters programs you can apply for, provided you meet the requirements.

Nevertheless, you could still graduate with just a commerce degree and get into work. Grades and work experience are absolutely vital to almost any job application. I applied for an internship at IBM in Perth - 3rd question in, they asked 'What is your GPA?' - so I would say, in most cases, grades are important in preliminary application stages.

[ggxoxo]

Hey guy I've just finished my year 12 exams and have been re-thinking whether just Bachelors degree in Commerce is enough, especially for management consulting and Investment Banking(here we go again right?).

I'm quite comfortable that I will get the ATAR needed for Melbourne Uni's Commerce Degree, but ultimately I'd like to do a combined Comm/Law one. I know Monash offers one but their Clayton campus would be too far(granted my ATAR would need to be as high as 97.95 of course). I've also been shocked at the exorbitant fees for Melbourne's JD program( is it really 100,000?)

So I guess I'm leaning towards Melbourne's Commerce degree for practical and commuting reasons. My question then is if a commerce degree is sufficient for these high end finance roles, given that I'll be competing against many others with combined Comm/Law degrees? I would be open to an additional year of honours in Finance. Or is it less about what you study and more about your grades and relevant work experience?

I went to a networking event earlier this year and spoke to a couple of investment bankers- one (from Credit Suisse- with an LLB/Comm, mind you) told me specifically that if IB is definitely what you want to do, then just do straight Commerce; but make sure you get really good grades, mix it with lots of extra-curricular activities (please join Embrace Education http://www.embrace-education.org/- we love getting new volunteers [only ad I'll make for my club in this post :p]), maybe go on exchange, secure an internship in your penultimate year (preferably where you want to work- like the HR rep in the event for Goldman Sachs said that their graduate roles were mostly given to summer interns they had the previous year) AND also aim to do an honours year in finance!

Just to add onto what werdna said, the guy from Credit Suisse said that 75+ should be enough differentiate you from people, academically (in which case, they'll start looking at your ECs, leadership roles).

Note that this is for the Australian market- I think a law degree would be helpful if you wanted to then move into American market. Also, if you did want leadership roles in a firm, the firm would probably suggest you go back and get an MBA (or you could just do it just because you want to :p in which case, you can do JD/MBA)

If you have good grades, good ECs (make sure you don't just join a club- try to get into the sub-committee, executive), try to get into honours (maybe even do masters), I don't see why you won't be able to compete with Comm/Law students (also note that if you do a single Comm degree, you can double-major; if you do LLB/Comm, you can only fit one major into your degree- another thing to consider!)... also just because you have a law degree doesn't mean you're exempted from doing extra-curricular activities and all that (they still have to make themselves stand out because there's hundreds of other students with the exact Comm/Law degree)

In terms of management consulting, I've really only spoken to one firm and they said they usually only take someone who has been out in the workforce and has a bit of "intuition" (also, engineering and actuarial studies is apparently a huge plus for management consulting- I'm presuming it's because these teach you to be meticulous and analytical in how you approach things). A woman told me these are the type of questions they ask you in management consulting interviews: http://www.bcg.com/join_bcg/practice_cases/

When you get to uni, definitely join FMAA (and CCA if you're in Monash) and go to some networking events- also try to do the UBS IB Challenge... that was really insightful to see it's like to be an investment banker (even if you just sit in on their seminars and not actually finish the challenge)

[appianway]

On the investment banking note, in the US, most analysts enter with just a BA - if you have a higher degree, you'll have to compete with people who already have MBAs and prior experience for associate positions.

For consulting, they tend to not care about what you studied BUT they care about prestige a lot. So maybe an additional degree might be helpful here. Consulting firms do hire out of undergrad (McKinsey gave 21 or 23 offers to Yale seniors this year, and Yale isn't a very businessy school so I assume Wharton had a lot more), but only a couple of positions exist in Melbourne, so I would keep your options open.

[spectroscopy]

investment bankers- one (from Credit Suisse- with an LLB/Comm, mind you) told me specifically that if IB is definitely what you want to do, then just do straight Commerce

would this put someone at a disadvantage if they did science will entirely finance electives?

also, in reply to appianway - if youre bachelors degree isnt so good, or doesnt have enough finance, then you go and enter a masters in finance or commerce, would you be competing against bachelors students for analyst positions or against MBA's for associate ones?

[ninwa]

If you don't need a law degree and grades are paramount then maybe avoid law. Law standards are "lower" than other faculties - in that a low distinction average in law (73 I believe) is considered very good and is enough to get first class honours (whereas other faculties I'm fairly sure require HDs), but will still drag down your overall GPA

Not sure about law being helpful in the US since it's a totally different system of law over there and I don't know if they even recognise the LLB

[JinXi]

A mistake that I see far to many students make a mistake on is that they focus too much on the grades and the name of the degree, but fail to realize that companies nowadays are looking for people who are actually capable (and proven) to take on leadership roles.

During your time at university it is important NOT to sit on your ass and just study, but go out and get involved. Have a start-up, lead a project, be a critical member of associations. These experiences are what companies are looking for nowadays, not that piece of paper that some university gives to you. Of course, get a decent grade (70%+ is sufficient for most companies), but place your emphasis on building your life skills instead of building up to a 98%+. Of course, if you can do both, that'll be great.

In the past few months I had quite a number of interviews for internships with management consulting firms. What I realized is that they were extremely interested about the start-ups and projects that I was involved in, and especially previous internships and work experience. Some of the interviewers didn't even mention about uni grades/GPA. (Currently sitting on a low 80% WAM) Many of them asked questions revolving about how you will deal with this given scenario A. These are the type of questions that no degree will prepare you for, and were extracurricular activities will prove invaluable.

I managed to secure a number of internship offers and I really felt that it was what I did out of uni, not in that mattered to the companies. It is also important to note that you should not wait until your penultimate year of studies before applying for an internship. Having internships in smaller firms prior to applying to top tier firms gives you a massive advantage over your peers, and will also present an obvious topic for the interviewer to question.

Basically, my take home message is that have decent grades, and be involved, and degrees shouldn't matter for most companies. People who successfully gets into a top tier firm are the ones who had been preparing for years leading up to their application, not those who had been focusing on their studies and only seriously consider about employment aspects during the last few months of their university life.

For consulting, they tend to not care about what you studied BUT they care about prestige a lot.

I've heard about this as well and it is quite apparent that it's true as it gives their employees more credibility when speaking to clients. However, considering that if you're applying for a firm in Australia, getting into a G08 university will suffice. (Not bashing other unis but just stating facts)

P.S. There are a few exceptions of companies that favours technical degree over commerce. Eg. Accenture's HR discreetly told me that they favour Eng/IT "inclined" people over commerce, as expected since technology consulting is a major aspect of their company. However, trust me that in today's world, if you are involved with start-ups, you're bound to pick up essential programming and IT knowledge such as websites creation, email/communication systems, data sorting etc.etc. Demonstrating that you have those skills will definitely make you stand out.

[FunkyAfrican]

Thank you all for the replies, very informative.
Any more feedback would be duly appreciated.

[appianway]

Also yeah, I don't know about the commerce background in Australia, but it's not strictly necessary for jobs in banking in the US. I'm a physics major (not a double major) and I haven't received a job in the investment banking industry (and may never as it's really competitive), but I have an upcoming superday at a top bank and have been accepted to coffee chats/networking dinners for a number of other banks with no finance background whatsoever. I wouldn't say I have amazing extracurriculars (board member/president of a few organizations, started some stuff, part time jobs, organize a program for exchange students), but I do something, and most of the time they're looking for people who do something rather than nothing at all. One of the Goldman Sachs guys I spoke to said it's like a check list: they look for the grades, the institution, the leadership, the teamwork and the interest.

If you have a MFin, I'm not sure whether you'd be going for analyst or associate positions (probably depends on experience - you might also be going for a quant role). An MBA would place you in the same pool as people going for associates, but many of them would have previous IB experience so getting a job in IB afterwards would still be hard.

[JinXi]

I wouldn't say I have amazing extracurriculars (board member/president of a few organizations, started some stuff, part time jobs, organize a program for exchange students)

This nostalgic feeling of feeling like you do absolutely shit-o in life when reading AN's posts...

[appianway]

Quick update: spoke to people at the superday, and most candidates were finance/accounting/economics/statistics majors. That said, one of the MDs who I interviewed with had a BS in physics from Harvard, so having a non-traditional field of study can help you stand out and click with some people.