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Author Topic: VCE Chemistry Question Thread  (Read 2840181 times)  Share 

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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7710 on: December 17, 2018, 07:44:20 pm »
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Percentage absorbance and percentage transmission add up to 100% so it doesn't really matter which one is measured. Each colour corresponds to a specific wavelength of light. We know the wavelength of each colour of light on the visible spectrum so we just choose or make filters that suits our needs, so yes, by trial and error until you find a filter which transmits light of a that absorbs strongly. Btw, this isn't actually in the VCE Chemistry study design anymore.

Also, it does matter doesn't it? If the detector measures the amount of transmitted light, then to find the absorbance, it would be starting intensity - transmitted intensity. Whilst, it was in terms of measuring the amount of absorbance of the sample cell,then we don't have to do any other calculation to find it right? So isn't important to know whether the purpose of the detector in colorimetry is used to measure the absorbance of the sample cell or the amount of transmitted light that passes through the sample cell?

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7711 on: December 17, 2018, 07:50:21 pm »
+1
Just adding my few cents:

Yes, this is no longer in the current study design for Units 3 and 4 (the operation and function of it is covered in U1&2)

As for the question, the dector iteself cannot "measure" absorbance. It simply measures the transmitted light. From that raw data we can infer and calculate the absorvance.
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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7712 on: December 17, 2018, 07:53:24 pm »
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Just adding my few cents:

Yes, this is no longer in the current study design for Units 3 and 4 (the operation and function of it is covered in U1&2)

As for the question, the dector iteself cannot "measure" absorbance. It simply measures the transmitted light. From that raw data we can infer and calculate the absorvance.

Okay, thank you for informing me

addict

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7713 on: December 17, 2018, 08:00:05 pm »
+1
I guess my wording was a bit confusing. You put a known amount of light through the machine. The detector measures the amount that comes out of it. You do a simple division to find the percentage transmission. If you want the percentage absorbance, use )100% - percentage transmission). This isn't very interesting so VCE doesn't actually go into it. What they used to do is give you percentage absorbances of different solutions and ask you to work with a calibration curve.
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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7714 on: December 17, 2018, 08:03:03 pm »
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I guess my wording was a bit confusing. You put a known amount of light through the machine. The detector measures the amount that comes out of it. You do a simple division to find the percentage transmission. If you want the percentage absorbance, use )100% - percentage transmission). This isn't very interesting so VCE doesn't actually go into it. What they used to do is give you percentage absorbances of different solutions and ask you to work with a calibration curve.

Okay, let me get this straight. So the detector measures the amount of transmitted light that has passed through the sample cell?

I am just confused because both the Heinemann Units 1 and 2 textbook for chemistry and the A+ Chemistry Notes Units 3 and 4 book both say it measures the absorbance of the sample cell
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:05:24 pm by dream chaser »

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7715 on: December 17, 2018, 08:06:42 pm »
+1
When you shine light on something the light is either reflected, absorbed, or transmitted. In this case, mainly absorbed or transmitted. Suppose we shine red light at a sample that's good at absorbing it. If we shine 100 photons of red light and the sample absorbs, say, 80 photons, then only 20 photons reach the detector, so 20% is the percentage transmission and 80% is the percentage absorption.
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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7716 on: December 17, 2018, 08:10:07 pm »
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When you shine light on something the light is either reflected, absorbed, or transmitted. In this case, mainly absorbed or transmitted. Suppose we shine red light at a sample that's good at absorbing it. If we shine 100 photons of red light and the sample absorbs, say, 80 photons, then only 20 photons reach the detector, so 20% is the percentage transmission and 80% is the percentage absorption.

Okay, I think I get it now. It is just confusing when other chemistry sources say something else and you want a definitive answer. I appreciate the help you have given me here @addict. Much appreciated.

When you shine light on something the light is either reflected, absorbed, or transmitted. In this case, mainly absorbed or transmitted. Suppose we shine red light at a sample that's good at absorbing it. If we shine 100 photons of red light and the sample absorbs, say, 80 photons, then only 20 photons reach the detector, so 20% is the percentage transmission and 80% is the percentage absorption.

Actually, just one last thing. In this scenario that you have given, will the detector read 20 or 80 in this case?

mod edit: merged posts
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:24:46 pm by insanipi »

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7717 on: December 17, 2018, 08:13:29 pm »
+1
No problem. If I were you though, I wouldn't go into too much detail on this sort of thing. It won't really help you score well and could overload your memory.

I was just simplifying the situation for your understanding. Light isn't actually measured in photons and a typical ray would contain billions of photons (according to the particle model). It's the intensity that's being measured, but the ratio calculation thing is the same. I don't actually know specifically how a light detector works or what units it displays in but it could be any arbitrary unit and you would still be able to calculate the percentages.

Mod edit: merged posts :)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:24:04 pm by insanipi »
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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7718 on: December 17, 2018, 08:23:15 pm »
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No problem. If I were you though, I wouldn't go into too much detail on this sort of thing. It won't really help you score well and could overload your memory.

I am just learning it so that I am fully prepared for Units 3 and 4

I was just simplifying the situation for your understanding. Light isn't actually measured in photons and a typical ray would contain billions of photons (according to the particle model). It's the intensity that's being measured, but the ratio calculation thing is the same. I don't actually know specifically how a light detector works or what units it displays in but it could be any arbitrary unit and you would still be able to calculate the percentages.

Okay. Thanks for the explanation

Mod edit: merged posts
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:25:45 pm by insanipi »

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7719 on: December 17, 2018, 08:25:19 pm »
+7
Please don't double post. You can modify your posts to add more info or scroll up and press quote again to get multiple quotes in the one post :)
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dream chaser

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7720 on: December 17, 2018, 08:28:05 pm »
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Please don't double post. You can modify your posts to add more info or scroll up and press quote again to get multiple quotes in the one post :)

Okay, I'm sorry about it :)

addict

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7721 on: December 17, 2018, 08:32:18 pm »
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Please don't double post. You can modify your posts to add more info or scroll up and press quote again to get multiple quotes in the one post :)
So sorry, I'm new here. Will take care next time.
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DBA-144

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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7722 on: December 21, 2018, 05:32:45 pm »
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Suppose that water and an ester with a short hydrocarbon chain were mixed in solution. Given that the ester's hydrocarbon chain is short, then the Hydrogen bonds between water and water molecules would be broken, resulting in the formation of Hydrogen bonds between an oxygen from the ester functional group and the Hydrogen from the water molecule. Regarding this I have a few questions:

1. Would it matter whether the hydrogen bonds occured with the Oxygen that has a double bond with the carbon (i.e from the carboxylic acid) or if it were  to occur between the single bonded oxygen atom from the alcohol?
2.   Suppose a small ester was dissolved in water. The hydrogen bonds between water molecules and dispersion and dipole-dipole forces between ester molecules would break and new bonds would form between the ester and the water molecules. How would energy be released from breaking these bonds and would it necessarily have to be equal to the energy required to form new bonds between water and the ester.

Another question:
Would the ester be able to dissolve in an organic solvent? I had a quick search online but didn't find anything helpful. I believe that the ester would be unable to dissolve in non-polar solvents, but therefore, because it is polar, it can then be able to dissolve in polar substances. Correct?

And: Are there exceptions to the rule 'like dissolves like' and to what degree are we required to understand this for the purposes of VCE?

Thank you in advance.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 07:46:15 pm by DBA-144 »
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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7723 on: December 22, 2018, 12:24:12 am »
+1
Suppose that water and an ester with a short hydrocarbon chain were mixed in solution. Given that the ester's hydrocarbon chain is short, then the Hydrogen bonds between water and water molecules would be broken, resulting in the formation of Hydrogen bonds between an oxygen from the ester functional group and the Hydrogen from the water molecule. Regarding this I have a few questions:

1. Would it matter whether the hydrogen bonds occured with the Oxygen that has a double bond with the carbon (i.e from the carboxylic acid) or if it were  to occur between the single bonded oxygen atom from the alcohol?
2.   Suppose a small ester was dissolved in water. The hydrogen bonds between water molecules and dispersion and dipole-dipole forces between ester molecules would break and new bonds would form between the ester and the water molecules. How would energy be released from breaking these bonds and would it necessarily have to be equal to the energy required to form new bonds between water and the ester.

Another question:
Would the ester be able to dissolve in an organic solvent? I had a quick search online but didn't find anything helpful. I believe that the ester would be unable to dissolve in non-polar solvents, but therefore, because it is polar, it can then be able to dissolve in polar substances. Correct?

And: Are there exceptions to the rule 'like dissolves like' and to what degree are we required to understand this for the purposes of VCE?

Thank you in advance.

1. Doesn't matter both Oxygen atoms have 2 lone pairs (allowing them to form Hydrogen bonds with water molecules)

2. Good question but sorry, got no idea  :-\

3. If it was an ester with a long carbon chain, then yes it would dissolve in an organic solvent (long carbon chain negates the effect of the polar ester group, therefore making it relatively non polar)
If it was an ester with a small carbon chain, then it would probably dissolve in polar solvents like water (as it is relatively polar)

Exceptions: in particular conditions (temperature and pressure), sometimes you can have non-polar stuff dissolving in polar substances or vice versa. E.g. benzene rings (non-polar) can dissolve in water at the right conditions. For VCE Chem, I don't think you'd be expected to know which substances are exceptions to the rule

Hope this helps
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Re: VCE Chemistry Question Thread
« Reply #7724 on: December 22, 2018, 10:57:34 am »
+3
Suppose that water and an ester with a short hydrocarbon chain were mixed in solution. Given that the ester's hydrocarbon chain is short, then the Hydrogen bonds between water and water molecules would be broken, resulting in the formation of Hydrogen bonds between an oxygen from the ester functional group and the Hydrogen from the water molecule. Regarding this I have a few questions:

1. Would it matter whether the hydrogen bonds occured with the Oxygen that has a double bond with the carbon (i.e from the carboxylic acid) or if it were  to occur between the single bonded oxygen atom from the alcohol?
2.   Suppose a small ester was dissolved in water. The hydrogen bonds between water molecules and dispersion and dipole-dipole forces between ester molecules would break and new bonds would form between the ester and the water molecules. How would energy be released from breaking these bonds and would it necessarily have to be equal to the energy required to form new bonds between water and the ester.

Another question:
Would the ester be able to dissolve in an organic solvent? I had a quick search online but didn't find anything helpful. I believe that the ester would be unable to dissolve in non-polar solvents, but therefore, because it is polar, it can then be able to dissolve in polar substances. Correct?

And: Are there exceptions to the rule 'like dissolves like' and to what degree are we required to understand this for the purposes of VCE?

Thank you in advance.

1. You'll find that esters don't dissolve greatly in water. Methyl formate (chemical name methyl methanoate) is the smallest ester possible and does not fully dissolve in water (i.e. put too much of it in water and it won't dissolve. In contrast, ethanol is fully miscible with water, aka mixes in all proportions).

Anyway, the most polar region is the COO carbon. It has three bonds to oxygens, so it is quite positive. For more complicated reasons (resonance), the C=O oxygen is slightly more negative than the other oxygen, so any hydrogen bonding would preferentially occur with that oxygen.

2. Re energy bonding, dissolving does not have to release energy. Often, actually, dissolving costs energy. For instance, anything that dissolves more in hot water than in cold water requires energy to dissolve. Common table salt is an example. Now, I don't have the figures on the top of my head, but I would imagine that the ester costs energy to dissolve in water, because the dipole bonds are not stronger than water's hydrogen bonds.

You may wonder, if it costs energy, why does it dissolve? The answer is, there is an intrinsic benefit to mixing. If you inject some helium into a large room, after some time the helium will expand to fill the entire room. It does so because the helium is statistically much more likely to be in a larger volume than in a small one, and we call this statistical phenomenon entropy. The same is true for dissolving. The ester molecules would prefer to be able to be in the entire volume of water for their entropy to increase (aka spread over a larger region). However, there is an energy cost in the dissolving, so you have to weight up the entropy benefit of dissolving and any heat released.

3. Esters aren't as polar as you may think; as mentioned above, ethanol dissolves more readily than methyl formate in water, and they both have two carbons. You can heuristically think of this as because the COO group disperses the charge over a larger distance, so there isn't as much of an imbalance in the charge distribution. In contrast, in an alcohol, there is a pretty well-defined + and - end. Therefore, esters dissolve worse than alcohols of similar sizes. Now, octan-1-ol has a pretty poor solubility in water, so you can bet that any ester with a similar number of carbons would also not dissolve well in water.

Now, guess what? Fats are esters. And you know what fats dissolve very well in? Organic solvents. Fats consist of long chain fatty acids (think 18 carbons or so) that react with glycerol (think three carbons with an alcohol on each one; all three can form ester bonds) to form triglycerides.

4. Exceptions to 'like dissolves like'? Plenty. Look at all of the ionic compounds that don't dissolve in water. Ionic compounds are meant to be the 'pinnacle' of polarity, yet metal hydroxides, metal oxides, metal iodides, metal bromides, some metal chlorides and others like barium sulfate don't dissolve in water. You are expected to know what ionic compounds dissolve in water. The reason for the variation in dissolution behaviour is complicated and I won't go into it.

1. Doesn't matter both Oxygen atoms have 2 lone pairs (allowing them to form Hydrogen bonds with water molecules)

2. Good question but sorry, got no idea  :-\

3. If it was an ester with a long carbon chain, then yes it would dissolve in an organic solvent (long carbon chain negates the effect of the polar ester group, therefore making it relatively non polar)
If it was an ester with a small carbon chain, then it would probably dissolve in polar solvents like water (as it is relatively polar)

Exceptions: in particular conditions (temperature and pressure), sometimes you can have non-polar stuff dissolving in polar substances or vice versa. E.g. benzene rings (non-polar) can dissolve in water at the right conditions. For VCE Chem, I don't think you'd be expected to know which substances are exceptions to the rule

Hope this helps
Benzene rings dissolving in water? Benzene's solubility in water at room temperature is something like 2 g/L, so its solubility is limited. For it to dissolve in water, you really need a polar group on it. Phenol's solubility in water jumps to 8 g/L, for instance, and it just has one alcohol on it. So, you wouldn't refer to it as the solubility of the benzene ring as such.

In fact, methyl ethanoate dissolves pretty poorly in water, but is miscible (dissolves in all proportions) with diethyl ether, a non-polar solvent. This suggests that esters can be treated as being non-polar.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 06:12:46 pm by lzxnl »
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