General "Feminism" Debate.

[helluva]

So then it's got less to do with an inborn lack of interest in maths, and more to do with social environments that aren't conducive to STEM pathways.

I think the point is that there is an inborn lack of interest in maths?

[chasej]

I think the point is that there is an inborn lack of interest in maths?

You aren't proving there is an inborn lack of interest. You are merely stating an outcome that there is a lack of interest instead of delving into the factors which may cause this lack of interest, I provided a whole list of factors which are socially/prefencially based as opposed to biologically based which directly disprove what you are saying.

I have said this like 4 times to no avail or recognition by you so I actually give up attempting to have any sort of proper debate/conversation with you.

[achre]

From this page:
"(...) men and women likely have equal potential to be good (or bad) at math.  But, in societies in which women are told that they shouldn’t or can’t do math, they don’t.  And, as Fatistician said, “math is a skill.”  People who think practicing it is pointless won’t practice it.  And those who don’t practice, won’t be any good at it… Y chromosome or no."
Which is just that article's author's way of summarising this study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/320/5880/1164.summary?ck=nck
Which I can't actually read without getting an account.
Interesting comment on that page though, that you should have cited:

Controversy

According to the 2006 Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) data provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development (1), Finland is actually ahead of Iceland when it comes to gender equality, yet girls there score a statistically significant 12 points worse in math than in Iceland. And in Germany, ranked 7th on the equality scale, girls are 20 points behind Iceland.

In Jordan and Kyrgyzstan, girls do score about the same, yet these two nations rank 104th and 70th on the equality scale.

Therefore, L. Guiso et al.'s conclusion, that a gap "doesn’t exist in countries in which there is greater gender equality," (Education Forum, "Culture, gender, and math," 30 May 2008, p. 1164) is not at all supported by the data.

[helluva]

Yes that's what I am trying to say. Please link these preferences in women to any sort of biological factor. Preferences are normally a choice formed through social constructs as humans are social creatures who attempt to fit in.

I am not going to repeat myself again. I am saying, that social constructs can occur through organic processes, such as a natural inclination for boys to like math. They are then exaggerated as people try to fit social norms and result in dis-empowerment of individuals who do not fit the social norms, but they are not artificially made.

I totally agree that society perceives what a 'man should be' and also 'what a woman should be'. However, I am saying, we are not answering the question with this. I am asking, why does society think that a man ought to be in a certain way and a woman in a certain other way?

Likewise, I totally agree that women who want to do maths for a long time have been dis-empowered in the classroom. I simply am saying, that this is not the sole reason that there are not as many women who want to do maths as men in the classroom.

[chasej]

I am not going to repeat myself again. I am saying, that social constructs can occur through organic processes, such as a natural inclination for boys to like math. They are then exaggerated and result in dis-empowerment of individuals who do not fit the social norms, but they are not artificial.

I don't like to repeat myself either, so for the 5th time please provide evidence supporting that boys are biologically inclined towards math as opposed to girls. I think we all agree on the outcome here, what we disagree on is the factors and therefore any debate in this thread should focus on them.

[chasej]

I think the point is that there is an inborn lack of interest in maths?

Did you even read what you linked:

So what’s the real story here?  Well, one study found that the gender gap in math ability and the level of gender inequality in a society were highly correlated. That is, “…the gender gap in math, although it historically favors boys, disappears in more gender-equal societies.”

Part of the problem, then, is simply that  girls and boys internalize the idea that they will be bad and good at math respectively because of crap like the “Math class is tough!” Barbie (sold and then retracted in 1992):

So, with only the possible exception of genius-level math talent, men and women likely have equal potential to be good (or bad) at math.  But, in societies in which women are told that they shouldn’t or can’t do math, they don’t.

If this gender gap in maths was biological how come as you admitted in progressive countries like Iceland, it disappears. Shouldn't biological factors be mostly universal between those sharing similar ancestry (the debate here is focusing on societies likely to be dominated from those of European descent)

[helluva]

I don't like to repeat myself either, so for the 5th time please provide evidence supporting that boys are biologically inclined towards math as opposed to girls. I think we all agree on the outcome here, what we disagree on is the factors and therefore any debate in this thread should focus on them.

That is impossible to provide evidence, and there you are resting on conjecture. I am saying, that the fact that places like Iceland where there is massive gender equality and a rejection of western social norms and western influence, that in such a place men are still outperforming women and it is determined that women simply aren't as interested, and that we have removed the factors that say a man is good at maths and a woman not, then within all the bounds of reason, the best explanation we can give is that men have a natural disposition towards math.

[helluva]

Did you even read what you linked:

If this gender gap in maths was biological how come as you admitted in progressive countries like Iceland, it disappears. Shouldn't biological factors be mostly universal between those sharing similar ancestry (the debate here is focusing on societies likely to be dominated from those of European descent)

I don't understand how that article found its conclusion based on the evidence that was presented earlier in the article. I gave it to cite the Iceland part.

I am not saying that women do not have the intellectual means to be good at math. I said this before very explicitly, that there is equal potential. I am saying, that through innate disinterest, they will on a wide scale end up being worse in math.

[chasej]

I don't understand how that article found its conclusion based on the evidence that was presented earlier in the article. I gave it to cite the Iceland part.

I am not saying that women do not have the intellectual means to be good at math. I said this before very explicitly, that there is equal potential. I am saying, that through innate disinterest, they will on a wide scale end up being worse in math.

The articled formed the conclusion due to this:

When boys do better, they are usually also doing worse.   Boys are also more likely than girls to get nearly all the answers wrong.  So they overpopulate both tails of the bell curve; boys are both better, and worse, than girls at math.

Essentially boys populate the top end which falsely implies boys are better while boys also populate the lower end greatly, meaning the average girl is better at maths, beyond the younger years.

Thereby the article concludes excluding geniuses i.e. the top end, girls and boys are more or less equal in mathematically ability and there is another factor at play other than ability, while this quote "elementary school teachers, who are over 90% female, sometimes do to and they teach math anxiety by example." leads the author to conclude there is an ongoing social construct of falsely perpetuated anxiety leading to lower maths confidence/interest in girls.

girls who endorsed this stereotype had significantly worse math achievement than girls who did not\

Basically once girls are exposed to the stereotype they do worse at maths. But when girls are kept away from the stereotype they do better. Girls are being forced into a social construct which has very little to do with and in fact impairs their mathematical ability as per this statement.

[helluva]

Chasej, you have not answered my points. We are just talking past each other.

I am leaving this debate because I've said all I want to.

For anyone who has happened to read this. I would like to say, if I were in charge of the world, equality and destruction of a 'patriarchal society' would be at the top of my agenda. The only thing I am arguing is what this would actually end up looking like, and more importantly how we should go about achieving it. I find a lot of traditional feminist thoughts to be ideological and speculative and I don't agree with them being the best route to achieving equality.

I think the patriarchal society is a lot more organic and symptomatic of our fundamental values and attitudes  than a construct of what people think. And there are some profound fundamental changes in the attitudes of our species if we want to take away this patriarchal society. Namely, it is to recognise that women and men have different strengths, and that we cannot believe in 'fairness' in the traditional sense that we think of it and also achieve a truly egalitarian society.

Either way, I always advocate respect and compassion for all people, and if anyone felt offended in certain sections. I apologise.

[chasej]

Chasej, you have not answered my points. We are just talking past each other.

I am leaving this debate because I've said all I want to.

For anyone who has happened to read this. I would like to say, if I were in charge of the world, equality and destruction of a 'patriarchal society' would be at the top of my agenda. The only thing I am arguing is what this would actually end up looking like, and more importantly how we should go about achieving it. I find a lot of traditional feminist thoughts to be ideological and speculative and I don't agree with them being the best route to achieving equality.

I think the patriarchal society is a lot more organic and symptomatic of our fundamental values and attitudes  than a construct of what people think. And there are some profound fundamental changes in the attitudes of our species if we want to take away this patriarchal society. Namely, it is to recognise that women and men have different strengths, and that we cannot believe in 'fairness' in the traditional sense that we think of it and also achieve a truly egalitarian society.

Either way, I always advocate respect and compassion for all people, and if anyone felt offended in certain sections. I apologise.

I believe you don't think Im answering your points as they are not the answers you won't to be hearing. Anyway, I regress, at least we can find common ground and agree to inequalities of opportunity where the desire for such an opportunity exist should be rectified as soon as possible.

I still believe much of this inequality is due to mainly social constructs due to stereotypical norms with no biological basis but regardless of what we believe the cause to be, let's just agree there is a problem, regardless of the extent, that should be rectified.

#agreetodisagree