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April 25, 2026, 07:02:28 am

Author Topic: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)  (Read 1964 times)  Share 

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ealam2

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Hi history:revolutions people! I just wanted to make a question thread where I'll be posting questions all throughout this year.

So first question relating to French Revolution AOS1:
Do townspeople belong to the Third Estate? Which taxes do they have to pay and which taxes are they exempted from, if any?

Also does anyone recommend going to HTAV's student lectures for History: Revolutions France?
http://www.htav.asn.au/conference-information/program-4

Is that $50 per person and what about the France in Revolution presentation by Historia Inc.? Is that worth it?
Are there any other lectures by any commercial companies out there and are they worth going to?

Thank you! :)

revsteacher

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 05:26:26 pm »
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Hi ealem2,

Townspeople (artisans, workers, prostitutes, etc.) belonged to the Third Estate. They paid most of the significant taxes like the gabelle, vingtieme, poll tax, etc. But they did not pay feudal dues or submit to corvee.

As to the lectures, it's a matter of taste. They are usually beneficial but not absolutely essential. If you have a good teacher, these lectures will probably just go over the same ground. If you are going to attend only one set of lectures, I'd suggest waiting until the exam lectures in October.

Good luck.

R.


ealam2

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 05:45:28 pm »
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Thank you very much, revsteacher!  :) Yes I will probably just go to the exam lectures in October to make sure I've covered everything.

Which taxes were the clergy exempt to? I know they were exempted to most like the direct taxes but which ones exactly?
And was it most often due to the fact that instead of paying taxes, they made an annual payment (don gratuit) even though it was less than 5% of their income and much less than the Church could afford to pay?


Cort

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2014, 05:52:01 pm »
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Thank you very much, revsteacher!  :) Yes I will probably just go to the exam lectures in October to make sure I've covered everything.

Which taxes were the clergy exempt to? I know they were exempted to most like the direct taxes but which ones exactly?
And was it most often due to the fact that instead of paying taxes, they made an annual payment (don gratuit) even though it was less than 5% of their income and much less than the Church could afford to pay?

The Clergy paid no taxes whatsoever, except of the voluntary don gratuit you've listed above. This was the voluntary gift that occurred every ten years, where this 'free gift' was based on the clerical income. While in theory all estates were meant to pay the taille, the land tax, unfortunately, majority of this burden was on Third Estate in reality. In another note, their exemption of taxes  was not due to their voluntary donation. Instead, it was based on the reasoning that is similar to the textbook example of exemption: "because the First Estate was the representatives of God on land", in which, allowed them to be mostly tax free. However, while this is true, there are other factors into play. They ranked ahead of the nobility due to their position as the custodians of the community's spiritual welfare, as well as its moral standards, hence, their significant role in a society that was highly reliant on religion, meant that they were meant to be tax free.

William Doyle also expands and gives some excellent analysis into why:
    "But..with the exception of provinces added to the kingdom since 1561, and thereby 'reputed foreign', all these ecclesiastical revenues were exempt from ordinary taxation. Unlike the nobility, the clergy had consistently fought off every attempt by the government to breach this principle. The most recent battle had occurred between 1749 and 1751, when the vingtieme had been introduced. The clergy won because they were well organized. Unlike the second or third estates, they had a representative General Assembly which convened every five years. "[1]

The extract's statement to their representative General Assembly meant that it gave the First Estate considerable influence to negate any taxes. Of course, while this is not a required knowledge needed in the exam, having a sense of wider reading would also fill out those black and white views.

However, this does not mean that you can assume or characterize that all of the First Estate taxation meant that it benefited the state of any sort. Many of the profits were directed to the profits (from taxes) of the higher ranks in the First Estate (Clergies; Bishops), whilst those who participated and connected with the lower social groups (mostly peasantry) were the Parish Priests themselves. The cure's dependency of local taxation, tithes, and a little piece of land meant that there was inability to have any sort of financial backing. Hence, there has always been a tension between the Parish and the higher ranks of the First Estate.

From my experience in Revolutions last year, it is recommended to not know all the taxation names that estates were indebted to (if they had any), but instead, focus on why, and how, that these groups caused the development of the revolution of 1789. This could be tensions felt between estates and inbetween estates, for example. Your goal, (if you want to impress the examiners) is to know a few of these.

Sources:
[1]William Doyle's The Oxford History of the French Revolution
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 06:15:30 pm by Cort »
I actually have no idea what I'm saying or talking about.

ealam2

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2014, 08:57:17 pm »
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Thank you very much, Cort! That was really insightful and I like how you used a reference.  :)

Yes I will focus on why and how and the conflicts taxation caused. Thanks!

Other History: Revolutions 2014ers studying Russia or France are welcome to post their questions in this thread too.  :)

ealam2

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 10:33:16 pm »
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What's the difference between financial (fiscal) and economic?

Also, could someone explain to me what exactly happened with Marie Antoinette's Diamond Necklace Affair (watched a video on it but didn't fully get what was happening) and its significance in terms of "igniting" the revolution?

Thanks! :)

revsteacher

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 10:51:56 pm »
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ealam2,

"Financial" and "fiscal" refer to the government's use of money, both through collection (taxes and duties) and spending (expenditure). "Economic" is a much broader term that refers to all aspects of production, trade and commerce, both by the government and private sector.

Re: the Diamond Necklace affair, a con-woman claiming to represent Marie Antoinette managed to rip off some Parisian jewellers of a necklace valued at 1.5 million livres. The queen had no involvement in this crime but gossip and rumour implicated her regardless. In other words, it was another stick with which the gossip-mongers and propagandists could beat Antoinette. As a student you don't need to know the details and complexities of the stories, however you should be aware of how it was used against the royal family.

R.

ealam2

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Re: 2014 History:Revolutions Question Thread (Unit 3 France and Unit 4 Russia)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 11:02:24 pm »
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Okay, thank you revsteacher. I just wanted that cleared up in my mind. :)